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Roger Gracie: Greatest Jiu Jitsu Competitor of All Time | Lex Fridman Podcast #343
2 hours 59 minutes 32 seconds
🇬🇧 English
Speaker 1
00:00
In my mind, I have to tap everybody else. Winning is not enough.
Speaker 2
00:06
The following is a conversation with Hodger Gracie, widely considered to be the greatest jiu-jitsu competitor of all time. This is the Lex Friedman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.
Speaker 2
00:20
And now, dear friends, here's Hodger Gracie. Let's start with possibly the greatest match in jujitsu history, your second match against Buchesha. Let's go through the details. Let's go through the whole thing.
Speaker 2
00:33
So the walk leading up to it. You always do this walk, this epic walk. You post that on Instagram. Hanzo posted on Instagram this calm walk towards the mat.
Speaker 2
00:44
Well, Let's go to that match in particular. What was going through your mind? You've been away from competition, facing probably 1 of the greatest, and at that time, many people considered the greatest jiu-jitsu competitor of all time in Buchecha. Here's the old man, the old timer, getting back out there.
Speaker 2
01:02
What were you thinking?
Speaker 1
01:03
Yeah, I think that's the first time since probably I got my black belt that I wasn't the favorite to walk into a fight, I have to say. Like a lot of people thought, consider him the favorite. I mean, understandable.
Speaker 1
01:18
You know, I was out of competition for a while, he was just winning everything. So, you know, you're saying about the walk, like for me, you know, the fight starts way before the referee say go, you know. It's all the focus and concentration that I think is very important for me to start before. Like, I almost walk blind to the mat.
Speaker 1
01:41
Many times I pass like great friends and I couldn't see anyone. They're trying to talk to you and I'm like, I'm 100% focused on my opponent already even though that I cannot even see him in front of me. So I think that's for me was always very important to try to clear my mind out from everything.
Speaker 2
01:59
Are you visualizing the opponent or are you just clearing?
Speaker 1
02:02
Not at that time.
Speaker 2
02:03
Right, what's in your head? Is it like a calm river with birds chirping? It's
Speaker 1
02:08
blank,
Speaker 2
02:09
just blank. Darkness.
Speaker 1
02:11
Yeah, darkness.
Speaker 2
02:12
Okay, and that's what we see in that calmness, is just blankness. How hard is it to achieve that blankness? It's difficult to say because
Speaker 1
02:21
I think I don't remember when I'll say probably as a black belt, I try to focus like that, not to think, because it's probably something you learn, is the more you think, the more nervous you get. And there's nothing that you're gonna gain by thinking of the fight or the possibilities, what you can do, what can go wrong, what can go right, because it's unpredictable. You have absolutely no idea.
Speaker 1
02:46
It's impossible to predict the fight.
Speaker 2
02:49
And you discover that if you just let those nervous feelings go and empty your mind, it actually is pretty effective.
Speaker 1
02:55
It is, it makes you feel better. It's, you know, you kind of control your emotion, control the adrenaline on your body up to a level. So it absolutely helps you focus in the fight.
Speaker 2
03:07
I've learned that in jiu-jitsu and in general in life, that whenever something feels really shitty, you can just like take that thought and not think about it. Like I do that on long runs or a fast run. Or yeah, in jiu-jitsu, especially when I'm getting older, out of shape, that feeling of exhaustion.
Speaker 2
03:25
Well, you can always get to the feeling of exhaustion. You can just not think about it, not think about being exhausted. And that somehow relaxes you. I think maybe in the face of exhaustion, all the fears start to creep in, maybe your muscles tighten up, I don't know.
Speaker 2
03:40
This is for the amateur, just in person. But it's kind of funny how you can just take that thought and let go of it. So you get, as a black belt competitor, you get used to, you get good at letting go of any thoughts.
Speaker 1
03:55
Yeah. When you mentioned to exhaustion is, I mean, that's another good example of it. It's, you know, there's a lot of times in the fight, you're getting tired and you're getting pretty tired. So it's like the last thing you wanna think of it is how tired you are.
Speaker 1
04:10
It doesn't matter because it doesn't. What are you gonna do, quit? I mean, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2
04:16
It's how tall you are. It's- There's no value thinking about it.
Speaker 1
04:19
There's no value.
Speaker 2
04:20
You just have to go through it. So when you're like, you know, many minutes into the match and you're slowly moving as you sometimes do, tying your belt, catching your breath, you're not thinking about anything. You're trying to let go of thinking.
Speaker 1
04:33
I'm trying to save everything to the fight. Nothing goes to waste. It's every move unnecessary, it's just gonna make you more tired or it's gonna take something out of you.
Speaker 1
04:48
Like, you know, I try to calculate every single move I make, save as much energy as I can, so I can fully, you know, be focused 100% in the fight. No waste, especially energy-wise.
Speaker 2
05:01
And that's instinctual, like minimizing the amount of moves. You're not like explicitly thinking, should I do this or not? You're just, just don't move unless it's absolutely required.
Speaker 1
05:13
Yeah, because fight, you cannot really, there's not really time to think much. You know, it's like, your instincts are playing. It's like, you already have your weapons, let's say.
Speaker 1
05:26
You know, the things that you do, it's just to wait for the perfect moment. The beauty of it is there's the right moment to everything. If you feel 1 second too late, it doesn't work. No, you get messy.
Speaker 1
05:38
So you're trying to catch that moment. And for that, you have to be fully focused in what you're doing, because 1 second, you're out. It won't work.
Speaker 2
05:49
But you're not exactly known as somebody that moves super quickly, so the moment, it's not about how quickly you move, it's about the right moment, so you move slowly.
Speaker 1
06:03
Yeah, it's not like speed, it's not like you have to move at the speed of light. It's the move itself at that precise moment. It doesn't have to be super fast because your opponent's not moving super fast, so it's a combination of movement between you and him.
Speaker 2
06:21
I mean, the same thing happens in judo, and the movement can be really small.
Speaker 1
06:25
Yeah. It's just... Judo is a bit more explosive, you know, the moves are slightly faster, so it does require a bit more explosiveness in Judo.
Speaker 2
06:36
But even just the right timing for an off balance. Just a little tough.
Speaker 1
06:42
Yeah, it's not that the moving, the speed is not gonna count that much. It's the timing that you initiate that move.
Speaker 2
06:49
You see that with foot sweeps. There's nothing more beautiful than like Olympic level athletes going at it in the Olympics and a perfect
Speaker 1
06:57
foot sweep.
Speaker 2
06:58
And it's just, and you see 1 man's life flash before his eyes and realize, like, I'm supposed to be the top 3 person in the world that I just find, and they have this look on their face, like, I don't know what just happened. It's beautiful to see. You don't see that, I guess you see that in boxing, knockouts and stuff like that.
Speaker 2
07:16
You don't know what the hell just happened.
Speaker 1
07:18
Yeah, it's that precise moment of movement that you get caught. Like it's that 1 split second, that's it.
Speaker 2
07:27
Do you get that in jiu-jitsu at all? Because judo has, because of the explosiveness, because of the points scoring system that incentivizes these giant throws, has these moments where everything just turns in a single moment. Do you have that in Jiu-Jitsu too?
Speaker 1
07:42
Not really because then it's points. Yes, you get like 2 points. So it's, because I think regarding the submission is not just 1 precise movement that change everything.
Speaker 1
07:55
I think judo is the takedown that counts as a submission, like Ippon, fight over. Jiu-Jitsu don't have that. So you will score points, but I think in terms of submission you need to get to a dominant position first and then the submission will come slowly. It's a process.
Speaker 2
08:16
Yeah. Okay, let's go back to that guy with his mind. So actually in the weeks leading up to it, in the days, in the hours, in the minutes, is there some fear in you leading up to this?
Speaker 1
08:30
I mean, I'm not gonna say that I'm fearless because everybody fears something, you know? The fear is there, but it's like, how much you let that control you. I think I was a lot more confident than fearful, for sure, walking into that fight.
Speaker 1
08:46
Like, I was pretty confident that I could beat him. Where's the source of that confidence? My beliefs, only this. Okay.
Speaker 1
08:55
I can take the world.
Speaker 2
08:57
Not, you can take anyone in the world, but is there a specific strategic, like talking to Donahair, he believes that there's no such thing as confidence, or rather, the way you get confidence is through data, like that you have proven yourself effective in previous situations, but with Buchecha, you don't have much data. It was a very, the first time you faced him was a very tough, that was also 1 of the greatest matches of all time, it was very tough. So doesn't that creep in, like that doubt, because you don't have enough data to be confident based
Speaker 1
09:36
on. Yeah, I mean, okay, if I never have fought before, you know, suddenly walk into a fight with someone like that, then would I be that confident? I mean, probably no. You know, so that history of what we've been doing, what we've been achieving, just gives you confidence.
Speaker 1
09:57
If that was my first fight ever, I probably wouldn't be that confident.
Speaker 2
10:02
But the time off? It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter.
Speaker 1
10:06
Doesn't matter, doesn't matter.
Speaker 2
10:07
You don't have the fear or the actual physical experience, the psychological experience of being rusty, of being out of competition?
Speaker 1
10:14
That will come out on training.
Speaker 2
10:16
So you, okay, so you simulate some aspect of that in the training?
Speaker 1
10:20
Yeah, the training will tell you how you are. Okay.
Speaker 2
10:23
Did you increase the intensity of the training leading up to this?
Speaker 1
10:27
Yeah, I mean, I trained normal. Let's say compared to the first fight, the second was a lot more confidence because, you know, like I say on training, the training for the first fight, they were terrible.
Speaker 2
10:39
So what do you mean?
Speaker 1
10:41
I think I was focusing on MMA for a while, for a couple of months, and I wasn't really focusing the gi and by the time I accept the fight and start training, like all my responses on training were off. Like all my training partners that I used to train with that I destroyed, I mean now they're like, they're beating me. You know, it's like I cannot beat them the way I was used to.
Speaker 1
11:05
So I knew something was not right for the first fight. But then it's, you know, no points, it's submission or draw.
Speaker 2
11:15
Yeah, for people who don't know, it was in Munter Morris, which is a 20 minute match, submission only. So there's no, the winner is determined only by submission. Otherwise it's a draw.
Speaker 1
11:23
So physically I was, I wasn't myself on that fight. I was tired and my body wasn't responding. Anyway, so that, so the confidence was different from the first, the second.
Speaker 1
11:34
I think I was confident enough that I wouldn't get tapped out on the first, that I was still gonna fight because he has to tap me out to beat me. And I trust on my defense. I'm confident enough on my defense that he will not help me out. But in terms of winning, you know, walking to the second fight, I was a lot more confident.
Speaker 2
11:55
What can you say about that feeling when something's not right? Isn't that a thing that breaks people?
Speaker 1
12:00
It is, it breaks, it's weird. Like people crack, they give up. You know, it's a big test because it's like being really tired.
Speaker 1
12:10
It's the same thing. It's like a lot of people crack because they just feel they cannot give in more. They have nothing more to give. So they just give up.
Speaker 1
12:19
It's too hard.
Speaker 2
12:20
So what do you do? Just again, take the thoughts out?
Speaker 1
12:23
There's no giving up. I mean, I don't care. Like, just giving up's not enough.
Speaker 2
12:31
It's not. That's always the way you thought of all jiu-jitsu?
Speaker 1
12:35
Yeah, I never gave up. I mean, I tapped. It's not giving up, it's not tapping, that's just stupid.
Speaker 1
12:43
Especially during training, I get caught, I tap. I've never, ever hurt myself by not tapping. I get, you get angry, you know, it's train hard, you know, improve, make yourself better. You'll go caught.
Speaker 1
12:57
Accept that you made a mistake, give up, tap, then try harder. So, you know, the not tapping, it's you're sacrificing your body and you know, you will never be the same. Like if you let your elbow popped, the elbow will never ever be the same ever. You let yourself go to sleep, your resistance drops.
Speaker 1
13:17
So it's everybody has a limit of resistance until they, you know, to resist a choke before you pass out. The moment that you go to sleep, that resistance will drop. According to-
Speaker 2
13:30
I've never heard anyone say, yeah, that's awesome. That's true. So tap, so that's the reason,
Speaker 1
13:35
because people usually say it's- No, it's the same way you're getting knocked out. You get knocked out the first time, your resistance drops, your jaw gets weaker.
Speaker 2
13:44
So- Just for the record, I've never gone to sleep again. Which means my resistance is high, right? I don't know.
Speaker 1
13:51
Must be. Oh, your defense is pretty good.
Speaker 2
13:54
I don't know about that. Because it doesn't make sense to me. Or maybe, In my case, I think my understanding of when I'm screwed is pretty good.
Speaker 2
14:06
Like, there's no.
Speaker 1
14:07
You're not in trouble.
Speaker 2
14:08
Yeah, 1 of the things I regret the most about my jiu-jitsu journey is not having given enough time to being in really bad positions. Like the better I got, I think the less I started being in bad positions,
Speaker 1
14:25
which is terrible. You spar, that's like, that is how you train. Yeah.
Speaker 1
14:30
Because you used to just spar. When you spar, it's difficult to be in bad positions a lot. You train with better people, but I mean, let's say 5, 6 men in rows, how long you gonna be in a really bad position? Not long, right?
Speaker 1
14:44
So you don't really have time to develop. That's why people, they don't, you know, they don't train in that position because you have to start there over and over again to be used to it.
Speaker 2
14:57
Yeah, or put yourself there. I just didn't have that mindset, I think. I think you start, I mean, part of the fun of Jiu-Jitsu is as you get better and better, you have certain people you go with, you have these puzzles that you've figured out that you're playing, very specific details you're working out, you're trying to improve your main techniques and so on.
Speaker 2
15:16
But yeah, just the percentage of time you spend being submitted or even going against like lower ranks, trying to escape basic submissions is low. I don't know if that's true for most people, probably is, right?
Speaker 1
15:28
Most people have very bad defense because they don't allow themselves to be there because I mean, who wants to get tapped? Because you will, until you work on your defense, of course you're gonna get tapped or you're not gonna escape, you're gonna struggle to escape. So people, they don't want to be there.
Speaker 1
15:48
I regret it most because of the effect it clearly had on how I competed.
Speaker 2
15:56
It was clear that my competition was constantly driven by conservative thinking, like don't take risks. I think because of a weak defense, honestly. And I think a lot of any of the fear, like for example, exhaustion was accompanied by fear because of weak defense, I think.
Speaker 2
16:16
If I were to psychoanalyze myself, and I regret it, I regret it a lot. But speaking of which, I don't think anyone's ever submitted you in competition.
Speaker 1
16:30
So you're... Well, I was a juvenile, yes.
Speaker 2
16:34
Yes, so when you were a young person. Yeah, 6. Does that still haunt you?
Speaker 1
16:39
I don't know. First I was winning that fight by a large, I mean, I think by 6 points or 4, something like that, but I was like, I was
Speaker 2
16:48
going to. You still
Speaker 1
16:49
remember it though, huh? By the details.
Speaker 2
16:55
Yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 1
16:56
Yeah. You ever beat him again? He never competed again.
Speaker 2
17:05
Whoever you are, please, let's do a podcast now, we'll
Speaker 1
17:07
talk shit about Hadji, the whole thing.
Speaker 2
17:10
No, but what do you attribute to that, too? You were saying you were confident that the top of the world, the number 1, Buchester would not submit you. So where is that confidence grounded and what do you attribute the fact that nobody was able to submit you?
Speaker 1
17:28
First, it comes on training. You know, I train a lot bad position. Like my defense is good because I practice over and over again.
Speaker 1
17:38
As much as I practice all my offensive position. So it's, you know, you have to train both equally. It's not just being in a good position, you have to be in bad. So I think that's a very strong part of my game.
Speaker 1
17:51
You know, to be a complete fighter, you know, a complete martial artist, you have to be good in every single position, every single 1. Those are the, you know, you have a weakness. So it's, you know, to be complete, you should have no weakness. So that was always my, you know, I was always very particular on that, like it's where my weakness, where am I, what I don't feel good at it.
Speaker 1
18:17
If you put me in a position where I struggle, how do I escape, how do I get out? Everything, any submission locked, pinning position, you know, back mount, everything. It doesn't matter which position I'm at, I practice over and over again. So that when I, if I get there in a fighting situation, I will know how to get out.
Speaker 1
18:37
At least I'll have a direction, you know, I will know this is my way out.
Speaker 2
18:42
Do you practice both escaping the bad position and the transition into the bad position, avoiding it, because that's how it happens. You know, Jiu-Jitsu, you start in a neutral position.
Speaker 1
18:57
No, the transition then becomes the fight itself. It's being there is the most important. It's when you're there, then you have to know how to get out.
Speaker 1
19:07
That's your weakness. Stopping the person getting there is something different. They're 2 different things. Either you practice 1 or the other.
Speaker 2
19:16
So both are important,
Speaker 1
19:18
I guess. Yeah, of
Speaker 2
19:18
course. But stopping the person is easier to practice because that comes naturally in training. Yeah. What was the actual process?
Speaker 2
19:25
Like what was your biggest weakness throughout your, like just remembering what was annoying to you to figure out?
Speaker 1
19:33
I mean, side control is always. Bottom of side control. Bottom.
Speaker 1
19:37
Regardless how much you practice, it's not ever easy. You'll never be easy. But. It's so annoying.
Speaker 1
19:45
It makes no sense. Yeah, someone pins you down, he doesn't wanna move much, he's a big and strong guy, regardless of who, it's not gonna be easy to escape. So some situations are just hard.
Speaker 2
19:54
That must be the, sorry to interrupt, I'm interrupting Haja Gracie, he's discussing Jiu-Jitsu. But You just made me realize, if you're really good, if you're going against the perfect jiu-jitsu competitor, probably side control might be 1 of the hardest positions. Is it the hardest position to escape?
Speaker 1
20:14
It's 1 of them. If the person doesn't wanna progress, they're just concerned about not pinning. Yeah.
Speaker 2
20:19
Like the best pinners in the world, I mean partially because I've just seen Judo people that know how to pin. Yeah.
Speaker 1
20:26
They go skip their second throw, it's a nightmare. It's a nightmare. Doesn't matter how much you practice, it's a nightmare.
Speaker 2
20:34
And it's also just frustrating. I think, I guess it is also frustrating because a lot of people in that position will be about maintaining control, not progressing. And usually people when they're in back control are usually trying to progress towards the submission, which opens up opportunities for escape.
Speaker 2
20:53
So what's the actual process of just time and time again putting yourself in bottom side control?
Speaker 1
21:00
Yeah, over and over again, starting there, escape, back, escape, get back. If it mount you, get back. Any situation outside that, stop, start again, stop, start again.
Speaker 1
21:12
And it has to be, I'll say, 5 minutes, because it's the repetition that will teach you. You know, if you train like 3 minutes on top, you have time to, you know, 1 thing, and then time out. It's the repetition that over and over again, that, you know, when you try the same move over and over again, then you'll see what can go wrong.
Speaker 2
21:31
And is it understanding the details of the movement or actually doing the movement and feeling it?
Speaker 1
21:37
It's both. First you have to understand the movement and then practice. But most important thing is defense.
Speaker 1
21:47
Escape coming second. Because he's attacking you. The 1 thing is if he's not trying to submit you, but the other 1 if he is. Let's say if a person is very good, has a very good attack, the first thing is defense, not just escape.
Speaker 1
22:02
You can expose yourself to an even worse position because that is very risky. When you're trying to escape, you'll always expose yourself to a worse position. So avoiding that, first is defense, not getting caught, and then when you're escaping, don't be in a worse position than you are.
Speaker 2
22:20
So defense in jiu-jitsu, when you're wearing a gi, what does defense entail? Is it mostly grips? Is it mostly the positioning of your hips and legs?
Speaker 1
22:30
It's everything together because it's a whole body movement. It's constantly moving your arms, legs, body. They have to, everything works together.
Speaker 2
22:43
Going back to the mind of that guy, So confident, no fear at this point. Is there a bit of ego in there too?
Speaker 1
22:53
Yes, like I say, I'm not gonna say I'm fearless. Of course there's concerns. That fight, I would have to say, was probably the fight that I got nervous the most walking in, because I knew, wow, that man, that fight.
Speaker 1
23:11
I mean, everything for me, all my legacy was on the line, because if I lost that fight, forever I would be number 2, forever. And I mean, Buxeixe is a great, great guy, great competitor, Jiu-Jitsu is very good, but I'm better than him. I knew that.
Speaker 2
23:32
But he's competing nonstop at that point. No, no,
Speaker 1
23:34
he's a great competitor, taking nothing out of him, he's super tough, very, very tough, very good. He's probably the best competitor in Jiu-Jitsu, he won 13 times the World Championship, I won 10. So as a competitor, he has more titles than I do.
Speaker 1
23:53
But in terms of analyzing the game, I consider technically better than him. So knowing all that, everything that I build, all my legacy, it's if I lose...
Speaker 2
24:07
All writing on this match.
Speaker 1
24:09
If I lose this fight, I'm forever number 2.
Speaker 2
24:13
And none of that is going through your mind
Speaker 1
24:15
at all. No, I knew, I mean, it's not at that moment. I already knew that.
Speaker 1
24:20
I remember just before, you know, the curtains open, I'm standing and before they call my name, and I mean, my legs were like, I feel the adrenaline kicking on my legs and I'm like, you know, I'm hitting the legs. I'm like, wake up, you know, get off, get the adrenaline off me, you know. So it was intense, it was intense. And this was in Rio.
Speaker 1
24:44
That was in Rio. So. My hometown. So this is,
Speaker 2
24:49
I mean, and you know, Rio is not exactly known for its calmness in its fans. So this is like, wow, wherever they hosted the Olympics the year before, So this is like, I mean, this, like the whole basically martial arts community is watching this. Watching their fight.
Speaker 1
25:12
Yeah. I
Speaker 2
25:13
mean, is there some, was Hanzo there?
Speaker 1
25:15
Yeah. Yeah, he was there.
Speaker 2
25:17
So people are just, I mean, there's a tension. It's also, I mean, I don't know if you felt that in part, but you're also fighting for the Gracie name. Yeah.
Speaker 1
25:28
In our hometown. The greatest. Where the Gracie really established.
Speaker 2
25:32
Gracie competitor of all time, arguably, in the hometown. Yeah. I mean, okay.
Speaker 1
25:39
All my family, my best friends, my friends, everybody watching, everybody there. There was a
Speaker 2
25:44
lot of pressure, a lot. And then were you thinking that you would be able to submit him?
Speaker 1
25:52
No, it's at that point, like I don't predict how the fight will go. That I never did because it isn't predictable. It's, I never try to set any strategy for any fight.
Speaker 1
26:03
I think, oh, okay, that I did, but that was the only time that I set any strategy into a fight, it was a 15 minutes fight then. And I said, first 5 minutes I'm gonna play defense. He's bigger, stronger, younger, I don't wanna play his game. And I know he comes in very fast.
Speaker 1
26:23
Every single fight he had, you know, he comes very aggressive. So my strategy walk into the fight, I say, 5 minutes, I'm going to play defense. I'm not going to try to attack. I'm not going to try to match his pace.
Speaker 1
26:36
I already expected, you know, maybe I'm going to start losing the fight because, you know, if he comes in, there's a risk of me maybe getting takedown, you know, or something happen. I'm like, I'm going to stick to the game plan. 5 minutes, I'm going to start picking up the pace because then it's 10 minutes to go, which 10 minutes is a long fight. So I don't need to start fast, but I'm going to start being more aggressive and then, you know, try to take him down or pull guard, you know, by then I'm like, that's as far as strategy goes.
Speaker 2
27:04
There's no specific stay on the feet. Were you comfortable being both bottom and top in this
Speaker 1
27:10
strategically? Yeah, I'm always comfortable being bottom or top. I prefer to be on top because Being in the bottom, the person on top dictates the pace of the fight because he's on top over you. So I always prefer to be on top because I can dictate the pace.
Speaker 1
27:25
I can implement my own pace. And being the bottom, they can slow me down. So it's harder. So if I can choose, I will always be on top.
Speaker 1
27:36
But I think by then I was like, it's, you know, 5 minutes, hit it. I'm like, he's pretty big and strong. I'm gonna spend a lot of energy taking him down. I forgot.
Speaker 2
27:47
How did it feel? So here you're stepping in, by the way, puzzle maths, this is old school, as old school as it gets. So calm and relaxed here for people just listening, we're watching the early minutes of the match.
Speaker 2
28:01
So just feeling it out. He seems pretty calm too. He must be nervous too. I wonder how, do you ever talk to him?
Speaker 2
28:06
You guys are friends.
Speaker 1
28:07
Yeah, yeah, we're friends.
Speaker 2
28:08
Did he ever say how nervous he was?
Speaker 1
28:10
No, we never spoke about that fight.
Speaker 2
28:13
No? No. He probably lays late at night thinking about it.
Speaker 1
28:21
Maybe, I don't know.
Speaker 2
28:22
That SOB.
Speaker 1
28:24
Yeah, I mean, so you see the first 5 minutes, you know, he kept, I knew what he was going to do in my study his game. His stand up is most basic, is basic in takedowns, leg attacks, double leg. So he goes single, double, and he charges in.
Speaker 1
28:43
That is pretty much his stand up game. So you would try, you get a grip. Yeah, we got penalized.
Speaker 2
28:51
So do you like to use the, do you like to post with your left? You have a right foot forward usually. You're a righty, right?
Speaker 1
28:59
I'm righty, but I know he wants my leg. So I'm playing my stance just because of his game. All my grips the first 5 minutes was to kind of try to neutralize his attacks.
Speaker 1
29:12
So he wants to get your left leg. Yeah.
Speaker 2
29:16
Yeah, right there. Yeah. So how hard is that to stop that?
Speaker 1
29:20
I mean, he felt pretty strong coming in. So I'm pushing the head down, trying to play with his balance.
Speaker 2
29:27
Yeah, wow.
Speaker 1
29:29
If you see that there was a pause, go back there. He charged in, there's a pause, me standing in front of him. I did that on purpose.
Speaker 2
29:41
What do you mean?
Speaker 1
29:43
Just to, just in front of him, because you know, he tried, and I'm like, you fail, I'm here.
Speaker 2
29:52
So you could feel the frustration. I could feel
Speaker 1
29:56
his frustration not be able to take me down.
Speaker 2
30:01
So now, and this is just psychological battles.
Speaker 1
30:03
And you see me walking straight into the middle of the mat and he's circling out. Yeah. See, I'm going very slow, I'm recovering.
Speaker 2
30:11
And he's computing like shit.
Speaker 1
30:13
Yeah. Okay. Because he just made an effort, tried to take me down, he needs to recover. And I mean, you need to recover, the other guy's there waiting for you.
Speaker 2
30:24
Do I go for another takedown? Because this 1 failed. Yeah.
Speaker 2
30:28
Do I need to recalculate the strategy?
Speaker 1
30:30
Yeah, and he kept trying over and over again and keep failing. I think that frustrated him a lot on that fight. I felt him kind of slowing down suddenly because he was getting nowhere.
Speaker 2
30:46
So we're 5 minutes in. Yeah, he keeps, so you never got that take down in the early? No.
Speaker 2
30:58
Let's see. So At this point, do
Speaker 1
31:00
you pull guard? Yeah, okay. So that's when I felt like he's, mentally he's worried now.
Speaker 1
31:11
Did you
Speaker 2
31:11
try to pull close guard here?
Speaker 1
31:13
No, I knew he was gonna bring Danny in.
Speaker 2
31:15
Okay, because that's the defense against pulling close guard?
Speaker 1
31:18
Yeah, but I like that. I like people bringing their knee between my legs because see, I'm gonna close my guard even with his leg in. Okay, he's
Speaker 2
31:32
stopping the, well, this is awkward, but I guess.
Speaker 1
31:35
I was holding his arm, that's why he fell. He had no hand to post. Got it.
Speaker 2
31:40
But still, it puts a leg in. But you're able to close your guard around.
Speaker 1
31:45
So you're okay with that? I do that really well. I sweep people from that position a lot.
Speaker 1
31:49
What's the sweep? I guess it's just pushed. Okay. It's just a push.
Speaker 2
31:53
Like to your left side? Yeah. Okay, because he has no, oh, it's almost like a, you mean you're basically around his back a little bit, like a drag situation.
Speaker 1
32:01
He knew that, like I swept a lot of people with that sweep, so you see he kept leaning to his left, to my right. So I wanna push them to my left, so you see him leaning over to my right a lot.
Speaker 2
32:14
What's the right answer for him, to like roll or something?
Speaker 1
32:16
No, I mean, he's stuck. He does not really, he's stuck there. But the 1 thing he did, he kept off me completely.
Speaker 1
32:24
See, that he's leaning, like he's too afraid of my attack now because he should lean on me. You know, you should bring the fight to me. So when I felt him, I knew he was like, he's too worried about my attacks now.
Speaker 2
32:41
Oh yeah, that's right, so he can't, if he comes back to the center, he has no like.
Speaker 1
32:44
So he's not engaging now, that time he's 100% just defending. So I felt that, I'm like, he doesn't wanna engage. And he's looking, I knew at that point, he wants my foot.
Speaker 1
32:58
Because our first fight, I had the exact same position, I wasn't holding his arm, and he went to attack my foot, which he did, he got into attack. Like a toe
Speaker 2
33:06
hold or what?
Speaker 1
33:07
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so I knew he's looking at my foot. Which foot?
Speaker 1
33:11
Sorry, your right foot? My right, yeah, my right foot. Okay. And so how you defend, you're hiding it.
Speaker 1
33:17
I'm holding his arm.
Speaker 2
33:18
And now you're going to the back as an arm drag type of thing.
Speaker 1
33:21
So the moment that I came off, now I'm holding his arm so he cannot come up. So I'm holding his left arm so he cannot post a hand on the floor and come up. And he's holding your right to try
Speaker 2
33:33
to get you, basically to prevent you from attacking. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2
33:40
And he rolls.
Speaker 1
33:43
Yeah, he tried to get me off balance. So see, now I'm switching, I switched the grip on his arm, so I can free my left arm.
Speaker 2
33:51
Can I ask you a question? Yeah. Was there a chance he sweeps you here?
Speaker 1
33:56
I mean there's always a chance but very hard. Like that? Yeah but see my left arm is free.
Speaker 1
34:01
Oh so you can pose. Yeah.
Speaker 2
34:03
Why was your left arm free? Oh, because you were using it to guard it. I got it.
Speaker 2
34:07
Okay.
Speaker 1
34:08
So I tried the hook. Now you will see.
Speaker 2
34:13
Still got your arm.
Speaker 1
34:14
Yeah, but when I knew he's panicking because he did a move that he completely opened himself up. Like I'm holding his left arm, so by holding the arm, that prevents him from defending the hook on that side because his arm is being held across so the arm cannot block the hook. And I mean.
Speaker 2
34:38
The hook with your left leg?
Speaker 1
34:39
Yeah. So you see when he come up but I would say, I mean that's my guess but Bouchiche is, He's a big guy, he's like 110 kilos, 112, something like that. Which is? 245.
Speaker 1
34:52
Yeah, all right. So. What were you at
Speaker 2
34:55
the time?
Speaker 1
34:56
Less? 220, yeah, 220. A nice
Speaker 2
35:00
slim 100 kilo, okay. Yeah. So
Speaker 1
35:04
in hits, his defense are not amazing. He's good, but you know, he's not known to have amazing defense. So by being the big guy in the room, when you train, you used to get out of situations because of your size.
Speaker 1
35:19
You shake people off. You know, it's because of your size, you shake them off, you get off some bad positions. You can, I mean, I could feel in the first fight, I'm side control, you know, suddenly he explode out? So, you know, I've seen him doing that a few of his fights.
Speaker 1
35:35
Not in the most technical way, just I'm getting out. And he did because of his size. So, and he did the same thing, like he tried to stood up when I'm on his back. He completely opened up the hooks.
Speaker 1
35:49
He will see the next move, his head gonna come up and he gonna try to get off the floor.
Speaker 2
35:54
So basically come up, shake you off kind of strategy.
Speaker 1
35:57
There was no defense for the hooks. I put both hooks in Straight away. Oh, his arm is.
Speaker 1
36:03
Yeah, I'm off balance. Yeah, see, I didn't bring him up, he came up. Yeah. And now I'm attacking his neck and he's worried about the hooks.
Speaker 1
36:15
That's fatal mistake. That's like defense always come first. Remember what I just said now? Defense first, escape second.
Speaker 1
36:23
So he's not worried more about the points than his neck. So it was like a progression of mistakes. That's why I think he got frustrated when he couldn't take me down. And then when I pull guard, he was frustrated that the fight wasn't going his way.
Speaker 1
36:41
You know, he's very good about taking down. He try over and over again for 5 minutes.
Speaker 2
36:45
And here he was frustrated about the hooks. So he's like, it's almost like the frustration, things like, no, no, no, these hooks shouldn't be here.
Speaker 1
36:51
Like I pull guard on the grips that I want. He's not comfortable inside my guard. He's not in a position that he wants to be.
Speaker 1
36:57
He's over leaning to his left, you know, to not, he's not engaging or trying to pass. He's trying to get the foot, but his arm is trapped, he's gonna get nowhere. And then when I swept him, suddenly his world started collapsing. You know, he couldn't take me down, I pulled guard, I'm swept in, he tried to roll me over.
Speaker 1
37:17
No, he didn't get me anywhere. The first movement that he tried to escape, I'm on his back, I mean, now he's lost. Yeah,
Speaker 2
37:26
that, if you just go back to him standing up.
Speaker 1
37:31
See, both hook goes in no difference. Like there was nothing on the way of those hooks. Because he tried to come up.
Speaker 1
37:39
I think
Speaker 2
37:39
as he's coming up, you're high enough on him to where the weight was just probably immense. It just felt too heavy. I mean, you're already going for the choke.
Speaker 2
37:53
Of course.
Speaker 1
37:55
There's no time to lose.
Speaker 2
37:57
Look at that. Yeah. So you're not like worried I'm gonna get shaken off.
Speaker 2
38:01
You're going for the chair. Okay, you got your right hand on
Speaker 1
38:03
the lapel. No, I'm on your back.
Speaker 2
38:04
There's no shaking me off.
Speaker 1
38:04
I'm on your back now.
Speaker 2
38:06
We're in this together. And your right hand is opening up
Speaker 1
38:10
the lapel. My right hand is holding his arm. I'm still holding the sleeve.
Speaker 2
38:14
Oh, sorry.
Speaker 1
38:15
You're holding the sleeve, but. Holding the sleeve and I'm already going for the neck. Because it's timing.
Speaker 2
38:21
At which point do you let go of the sleeve and open up, help with the lower part, or do you not need it?
Speaker 1
38:27
No, I did that, but first I wanna try to make a grip. Like then I need to establish control before I let go of his arm. Got it.
Speaker 1
38:36
So I kept holding that a bit longer, and then when I fell, okay, I have a good control over the back, then I let go.
Speaker 2
38:44
Do you, Okay, so you have like a light grip on his lapel, but you're thinking you need that.
Speaker 1
38:50
I need to adjust that.
Speaker 2
38:51
You need to adjust that. You're like holding it there, and you're thinking, okay, at some point I need to adjust.
Speaker 1
38:56
All I need, all I want is to get under his chin, then I know, I mean, now I can go for it. Because if it's over, there's no choke, right? The wrist needs to be under.
Speaker 1
39:05
Can you choke Buchecha over the? No, I can't. That's just not right.
Speaker 2
39:10
Okay, it's not right or it doesn't work?
Speaker 1
39:12
Both, it's not right and it doesn't work. I mean, would you tap to choke on your chin? No, just pressure.
Speaker 1
39:19
You hurt, but it's not gonna choke you out.
Speaker 2
39:21
I don't know, I don't know. Let me argue this, I love this. Arguing with Roger Grayson about chokes, this is great.
Speaker 2
39:27
Okay, like clock choke, it was always interesting to me, because in Judo it's illegal to have the gear on the face, and so it was kind of liberating for me to be allowed to have a gear on the face. No, it's just- Liberating. No, you don't have to worry about it. Of course it's more effective to go under the chin, but I'm surprised just because the amount of pressure.
Speaker 1
39:49
It's all about how much you can take it. You can take a lot.
Speaker 2
39:52
But it feels like. No,
Speaker 1
39:53
it doesn't feel comfortable. I mean, sometimes on your mouth, it cuts your mouth, now you're bleeding, it feels horrible.
Speaker 2
39:58
No, but that's not the feeling. The feeling, it might not be a joke, but the feeling like it's a pressure that everything's just closing in.
Speaker 1
40:05
But it doesn't take you anywhere. Like you're not gonna go to sleep. You might not go to sleep.
Speaker 1
40:09
So it's just pressure. Yes. So pressure, it hurts, it's uncomfortable, but it's not gonna break your face and it's not gonna put you to sleep. So if I don't get the neck, I don't go for the kill.
Speaker 1
40:24
I'm holding his collar, my wrist is almost under, it's, I'm trying to kind of dig in. If I can't dig in, then I would adjust the collar, but first I need to dig in.
Speaker 2
40:39
I dig in first, then adjust. Can you do all that with 1 hand or no?
Speaker 1
40:43
I did.
Speaker 2
40:45
So you can tighten the choke with just 1 hand?
Speaker 1
40:48
No, I need the second 1 to open the lapel.
Speaker 2
40:50
To open the lapel. But you're like digging in with 1 hand.
Speaker 1
40:53
I'm digging in under the chin. Under the chin? Under, now I need to go deeper.
Speaker 2
40:57
But that, going deeper requires the second hand.
Speaker 1
40:59
It does. Okay. It does.
Speaker 2
41:02
And, but that requires you letting go of the other hand.
Speaker 1
41:04
Yeah, I have to let go eventually. Yeah, see? All right.
Speaker 1
41:09
Well, that's over. Yeah, because I'm already under his, like the first hand got under the chin.
Speaker 2
41:15
Do you need the hand on the second lapel?
Speaker 1
41:17
Of course, otherwise he turns and he's out. That's the control of
Speaker 2
41:21
the turning versus the tightening of the choke?
Speaker 1
41:23
Yeah, it does both. It helps tighten the collar and stop the person rolling.
Speaker 2
41:36
Were you feeling pretty good about this position?
Speaker 1
41:41
Yes. I just felt it's getting tighter, tighter, tighter, tighter because he wasn't super tight from the beginning. He wasn't like the perfect choke. So it was still, I mean, I knew it was like he's very close to the end, but I still need to adjust.
Speaker 1
41:56
There was still the risk of maybe his escaping. Is it possible for his head to slip out? It possible, yes, But I'm closing that gap.
Speaker 2
42:06
Yeah. And here.
Speaker 1
42:10
What did that feel like, relief? Relief, like awesome, amazing.
Speaker 2
42:17
Somebody on Reddit asked, ask him about the cross grip he used to sweep followed with a genius grip switch when Bouchet was inverted. Did you use a cross grip when you sweeped? I guess
Speaker 1
42:29
the cross grip in the arm, that must be it.
Speaker 2
42:31
Oh, that's the cross grip. Okay, what's the genius behind that? Or was that just the, do you like that kind of grip?
Speaker 1
42:40
Yeah, because I always like close guard. And no 1 wants to be in anyone's close guard, right? It's open guard, it's the step to pass.
Speaker 1
42:49
So everybody, when you try to close the guard, they bring the knee in the middle. Like if you're not standing, if you're lower on the ground and they open guard, if you're close to me, you need that knee between. So it's a must. That's when I start developing the attack.
Speaker 1
43:05
You know, I managed to have long legs to close my legs around people even with that. And then I just developed that sweep.
Speaker 2
43:13
When did you start developing that?
Speaker 1
43:15
I don't remember when, but I would say before black belt.
Speaker 2
43:19
Okay, so your answer to that is not to figure out how to prevent them from putting the knee in. Is there an answer to that? No.
Speaker 1
43:28
The good guys will always try to get the knee in. No, you can't remove the leg out of the way. That's not possible.
Speaker 2
43:33
Well, maybe off balance them enough to where there's no...
Speaker 1
43:35
No, no. Okay. I mean, you can try, but it's hard.
Speaker 1
43:39
If you can off balance, you sweep them.
Speaker 2
43:42
Right, so that knee's gonna, so you're gonna have to soften that muscle.
Speaker 1
43:44
That's a full sweep, yeah. Because that's, it's extremely common to have that. I mean, if I'm on your guard, open guard, you know, if you have your legs, if I'm between both of your legs in the open guard, my knee will be between your legs, because it's a must.
Speaker 1
44:00
My knee cannot be on the floor.
Speaker 2
44:03
Since Henzo was there, what did he tell you before?
Speaker 1
44:06
I think just motivate you. I think that's, Henzo always did that fantastically well, to motivate me, like before in fight or match. I think that, you know, the confidence, you know, his energy being around you, it's, I think that's the, is the great thing to have Henzo in your corner.
Speaker 1
44:25
It is the motivation that he gives you.
Speaker 2
44:27
What did you learn about jiu-jitsu and life from Henzo Gracie? We got to hang out with him in Vegas a little bit. He's a character.
Speaker 2
44:34
He's 1 of the historic coaches and jiu-jitsu competitors, but also personalities in the martial arts world, in the world in general. There's very few like him.
Speaker 1
44:44
Henzo is a fantastic person. It's, you know, What I've learned most from him is like, you can take any challenge. It doesn't matter when, where, or who.
Speaker 1
44:59
It's you have to be ready. And with that warrior spirit that he has, he always took any challenge, ready or not ready.
Speaker 2
45:11
Was it you that said it, or he said it, where not until you go in, you know, to do something difficult, do you discover the strength that you have. So like, if you really think about it, you might think that you don't, you're not good enough, you don't have the strength to take on something difficult.
Speaker 1
45:33
I fully agree, I think we are measured not when we're on the strongest, but when we are on the weakest. That's when we truly measure ourselves, our character, who we are, not when we're in a position of power, or when we're in a position of weakness.
Speaker 2
45:47
Have you surprised yourself, like how damn good you are? Like, is this really how good I am in this situation? Where in retrospect you might think, how the hell was I able to accomplish this?
Speaker 1
45:59
Not how good I am because otherwise I wouldn't be there. So being there in the first place, it's already not a great thing. But I say, every single time I found myself there, I was super proud that I've never cracked.
Speaker 1
46:19
Like I've never gave up ever, any second, any fight, never. Never been broken in competition. Never, even, it's not about winning or losing, it's about you giving up. I've never doubted myself.
Speaker 1
46:32
I always fought to the very end, always. That I'm most proud of. Because there was moments, you know, it's in a terrible position, you know, mainly like there was moments that I was super tired, but like, exhaustive tired, when it was easy to give up. Like, I had nothing more to give, but I pushed.
Speaker 1
46:56
I took energy out of my soul, I would have to say, because when my body had 0, my spirit, my soul, pull it out.
Speaker 2
47:07
Is that in part just not allowing yourself to ever quit? Yeah. I have 1 other thing I regret.
Speaker 2
47:18
I remember like a blue belt match. I remember, I'm not gonna say who it was against, but I remember just being extremely exhausted and just constantly fighting. A guy was really good mount, really good guard passing. And I just remember him passing my guard eventually.
Speaker 2
47:40
So it was just like a finals of 1 of the IBJJF tournaments and then right away going to Mount and just, I don't know, the level of frustration, I mean I quit at that point. So I remember that still. It's not about winning or losing, but I just remember I was like teary-eyed frustrated. And then I knew there was a lot of fight still left in there somewhere and I quit.
Speaker 2
48:09
And I regret that to this day. Because I think the reason I regret that is because it gave me an option to now quit. In every other aspect of life, this is an option.
Speaker 1
48:21
Yeah, it is. It sucks. Yeah, it teaches you, you know?
Speaker 1
48:27
It makes us stronger. It's like you said. I think it made you stronger.
Speaker 2
48:32
Yeah, it makes you stronger that you did that to learn that don't do that again. But still, like you said, just going to sleep and training, I do think it made me weaker. It did make me weaker in the rest of my life too.
Speaker 2
48:45
Those, you know, I've quit a few times in my life on small things, and you realize, okay, it's not that big of a deal. It's fine. Like, who cares? But what you learn over time is that voice always comes there.
Speaker 2
49:00
Obviously, maybe it does for you too, even at the highest level, of like, it's not that big of a deal, it's okay to quit here. Like, it makes sense, everybody would understand. In some sense, like, you're, many people would say you're past your prime in this match with the Buchecha. Like, it makes sense, you've been focusing on MMA.
Speaker 2
49:21
Makes sense. Makes sense to lose. Yeah, I don't know, that's a weird voice. And in some sense, It's that voice and a voice that says, why are you doing this?
Speaker 2
49:34
This is silly, this doesn't make any sense, just stop, just stop, just stop. And shutting that voice down and never allowing yourself to quit, that's a really powerful thing. Everybody I've met, everybody that's successful, yeah, down to the, even engineers, CEOs, Elon Musk, just never quitting. Like when everybody around you says quit, never quitting.
Speaker 2
50:01
It's weird, I don't know what that is. It might be genetic. It might be like using the stubbornness to just never allow yourself to develop that, it's basically developing a callouses to that voice that tries to tell you to quit. You never quit, huh?
Speaker 2
50:19
What would you attribute that to? It's like
Speaker 1
50:23
how much you want to get to the destination you chose. Like, you know, it's how badly you wanna get there. It's if you quit, you're never gonna get there.
Speaker 2
50:33
And you always wanted to.
Speaker 1
50:34
I always wanted to.
Speaker 2
50:37
Is there something you remember from that match, some things that happened before and after that stand out to you? Just since in Rio.
Speaker 1
50:44
Yeah, There was an interview, you know, like prior to the fight, you know, there was a big fight. We were doing like media every day before, you know, me and him, we were meeting for media. And it's like 5 days before, you know, 5, 6 days before, I'm quite chatty.
Speaker 1
51:00
It's, you know, The closer we get to the fight, the more focus I get, the less I start joking around, playing with people. But I remember, I think it was maybe 3 or 4 days before, we were doing an interview together. I think my cousin, Kira, was there. She was doing 1 of the interviews with us.
Speaker 1
51:20
And I don't remember exactly what we were talking about, but I just remember we were talking about the fight, of course, and then it was, you know, we're standing beside each other. And I'm like, and then I, you know, suddenly I chop in and grab him by the neck. I say, I'm going to tap you by the neck. And then he's like, you know, very shy.
Speaker 1
51:39
And then I let go. I said, no, I'm going to grab, tap you by the arm. And I could feel he was like, he wasn't comfortable, you know, with being the 8 of us, you know, me saying that I'm going to tap him out. There was like, I was so relaxed joking about it, but I'm joking that I'm gonna tap him out in a fight that we're gonna have him for a day's time.
Speaker 1
51:58
And yeah, I felt he was like not comfortable at all.
Speaker 2
52:04
Do you think you got in his head a little bit? Yeah, I did, I think. It gave you a little bit of confidence?
Speaker 2
52:07
Yeah. You've said that jiu-jitsu is a reflection of your personality, so both your jiu-jitsu and your personality, there's a calmness. What is that? Why are you so calm?
Speaker 2
52:16
Is there like an ocean underneath that's boiling? Is this developed or is this your personality? Are you basically leveraging who you are already to develop a game around the jiu-jitsu or did jiu-jitsu make you calm?
Speaker 1
52:29
I think both. I was always very calm since I was a kid, you know, since very young. I was never a very, you know, fiery person.
Speaker 1
52:37
So that is a reflection, you know, you reflected on my jujitsu, my life, on my fights, the way I fight. So it's a direct influence of my personality. And I think it's also in the day, you develop, the more you practice, the more you fight, you don't want to get nervous, you don't want the adrenaline, and so you just learn how to shut that off from your mind. So the less I thought about it, you know, it's like how many times I fought.
Speaker 1
53:06
You know, let's say the week before the fight, that's when you start more, when you're concerned the most, because now it's getting very close. Before it's just far away. You know, it's normal to think of the tournament, you get a bit nervous, but it goes away quick. But the fight, you know, the week before, now you're constantly thinking of that day.
Speaker 1
53:26
And every time you think, adrenaline pumps in, your heart accelerate, you know, it doesn't, you know, it makes it, it's like, why am I feeling this? What difference will it make? So you're kinda, you're shutting that thought out of your mind, because you don't wanna feel the adrenaline, your heart accelerating. It's not gonna add you anything.
Speaker 1
53:44
So It's the practice also that I think it helped me to shut that off my mind.
Speaker 2
53:50
Has that helped you in regular life?
Speaker 1
53:52
Yeah, of course. It's suddenly when you go into any situation that might be stressful, like an important meeting, or super whatever it is, it's like how much would you worry about that before? Worry is not gonna help you anywhere.
Speaker 1
54:08
It's the opposite. Just gonna make you more nervous, your heart will accelerate. Your ability to think clearly is gonna be damaged by that. So it's like the more calm, the more relaxed you are, the better you can think of.
Speaker 2
54:23
You ever get angry? Yeah. Like in traffic?
Speaker 1
54:28
You ever get like not calm, just like you're screaming? Not in a screaming, no.
Speaker 2
54:33
But just angry? Yeah. What does angry look like?
Speaker 2
54:36
Is it still calm?
Speaker 1
54:39
Yeah, like a few seconds of complaining, but then it goes away.
Speaker 2
54:42
Have you ever like thrown a cell phone at a wall or something like that of angry?
Speaker 1
54:46
Just that? No, I never get that angry. That's just silly.
Speaker 1
54:50
It's like it's, if I would have done that, I would not be able to control my emotions prior to a fight. There would be a lot
Speaker 2
54:59
of reflection. Letting yourself lose.
Speaker 1
55:01
Yeah, Losing control that will reflect other times.
Speaker 2
55:07
Do you think it has, in part, made you more emotionally closed off from the world? Like it's harder for you to be vulnerable to others?
Speaker 1
55:17
Probably, yeah, but I heard that a few times. I'm emotionally close, yeah, maybe. I think that influences it, yeah.
Speaker 2
55:27
Have you ever cried in a movie?
Speaker 1
55:29
Yeah, not for many years, but for, I think, maybe I'm getting older.
Speaker 2
55:33
You remember the movie?
Speaker 1
55:34
Something, no, it's a silly movie. I mean, it's, no, I mean. Is it the notebook?
Speaker 1
55:40
No, I mean, I would say the last few years, I've been crying more than before, for some reason. I don't know why, like silly movies, like nothing suddenly brings tears to my eyes. Yeah, well,
Speaker 2
55:53
I've already just having met you and interacted with you, I can see that you're kind of opening your heart and mind to the world. You could see like, here's this historically great athlete. Now like the wars have been fought and you're now like waking up to the world.
Speaker 2
56:11
This is cool to see.
Speaker 1
56:12
Probably I'm bringing my guard down now. I don't have to get up all the time.
Speaker 2
56:18
You can even do some podcasts. You said you watched movies beforehand sometimes, mentioned Braveheart. What were you doing?
Speaker 2
56:25
Did you watch something beforehand, like the day before?
Speaker 1
56:27
I used to, yeah, I think Braveheart and Gladiator. I mean, there's a few others that I've always watched the day before, because the day before I used to do nothing. I just want to be at home in bed watching TV, like saving energy, stretching by myself.
Speaker 1
56:47
So it's like, I just wanna save energy. I don't wanna waste my energy going out, going around. So, you know, those are the movies that I always like to watch. Kinda try to bring some, you know, hyper excitement.
Speaker 1
57:00
Like, you know, I'm getting ready to war tomorrow. So I'm like, let me watch some movies that like, brought that, you know, that warrior spirit into me.
Speaker 2
57:09
Yeah, what is that about human nature? Braveheart, I love even more. Should you put your life on the line for a thing that matters, or run away just so you can live?
Speaker 2
57:20
It's like running you may live, but like years from now when you look back at this moment, would you trade all the days just to come back to this moment?
Speaker 1
57:32
And tell the English.
Speaker 2
57:34
You can take our lives, but you can't take our freedom. I mean, oh man, what is that about human nature? Is there some aspect of like the glory you were able to achieve being more important than anything else?
Speaker 2
57:51
There's some aspect of that, that's greatness.
Speaker 1
57:55
Yeah, I never pursued glory. So it just came, you know, it came with it, but that was never my goal. I never cared for glory.
Speaker 2
58:06
Were you able to experience, like I'm at the height of this thing. Whatever humanity is able to achieve in various things, holy shit, I'm flying. I felt like
Speaker 1
58:22
no 1 can touch me. I can destroy people, yeah. Prolonged periods of time or just momentarily?
Speaker 1
58:31
I always knew, you know, from before I got to a black belt, that like, I can be great because I used to train with the best in the world. I used to, you know, for many years, and I used to see my progression with everybody else. So I knew I was getting somewhere. I knew I could be the best.
Speaker 1
58:54
And that was always my goal since very, very young. And I always believed that I could be. And that over the years, that kept telling me over and over again, because I'm getting better and better, faster than everybody else. So it's, I just need to carry on with what I'm doing.
Speaker 2
59:13
But I think you've said that you wanted to, and maybe you thought you could be the greatest of all time, like at the very beginning, like when you sucked. Yeah.
Speaker 1
59:26
Yeah, not the greatest of all time because, and I never really thought about that, but I thought I'm gonna be the best in the world when I stopped, when I stopped.
Speaker 2
59:35
Okay, so what is that, what is that, like that self-belief? Is there a component to that self-belief being a prerequisite? It's difficult to say because
Speaker 1
59:47
that was a decision, I think. Like, why did I believe I could be? I can't tell you that, because I don't know.
Speaker 2
59:56
But you think you decided to be.
Speaker 1
59:57
I decided to be, and I believe I could be.
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