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Mark Normand: Comedy! | Lex Fridman Podcast #255

1 hours 50 minutes 7 seconds

🇬🇧 English

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Speaker 1

00:00

The following is a conversation with Mark Normand, a New York comedian who has a way with words that is often both dark and hilarious. Let that be a warning, dear friends, to proceed with caution and to wear protection. You may, in fact, need it. He has a special on his YouTube called Out to Lunch and a new special on Netflix as part of the Stand Up Season 3 series I recommend you watch.

Speaker 1

00:26

This is the Lex Friedman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now here's my conversation with Mark Normand. I asked him, Dylan, about Bukowski first, so let me continue on that tradition and ask you about something that Charles Bukowski said about love.

Speaker 2

00:44

Wait, are we rolling?

Speaker 1

00:46

Yes.

Speaker 2

00:46

Oh, geez, no hello, no nothing. Nope. I thought I was robotic.

Speaker 1

00:51

Bukowski said, love is a fog that burns away with the first daylight of reality. So, Mark Norman, let me first ask you about love. What are your thoughts about love?

Speaker 1

01:02

You talk about your relationships quite a bit. Do you think love can last?

Speaker 2

01:07

I do, but I think it's work. Everybody wants love to be this pre-packaged, perfect, euphoric thing, but you gotta, it's like a good body, you know? We're all born with a good body, but you gotta keep it in shape, and it's the same with a loving relationship.

Speaker 1

01:25

I think you...

Speaker 2

01:27

Nobody wants to do the work, that's the problem.

Speaker 1

01:30

You talked about, I think you told a story about being unfaithful to a previous girlfriend or something like that. I think the story goes that you were drifting apart. Who were you talking to, Bert Kreischer maybe?

Speaker 1

01:43

Or something

Speaker 2

01:43

like that. Oh yeah, we were high school sweethearts, dated for like 12 years and then. So that wasn't love anymore.

Speaker 1

01:49

That was more like relationship.

Speaker 2

01:51

That was like- It was comfort. It was routine. And we just slipped into that kind of married life, autopilot world.

Speaker 2

01:58

And I tried to break up, I think, and it didn't take. It was 1 of those things. Our lives are just so baked in. And then I think I cheated and she caught me and it was ugly and then we went to therapy to try to work it out.

Speaker 2

02:13

But it's much like a car that gets into a wreck, the door just never closed the same. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1

02:19

Yeah, so what are your thoughts about then commitment, like outside of love, marriage?

Speaker 2

02:25

I think it's an antiquated idea. I think it's kind of silly and unrealistic. And I think we're coming out of that as we get all polyamorous and non-binary and queefy and all this stuff, I think we're slowly moving away from that.

Speaker 2

02:38

But I think a lot of the ladies, more majority women like marriage, like the idea of it. Like I'm a fiance now or whatever you call it. I'm engaged. And I mean, she is just woo-wee, going hog wild.

Speaker 2

02:54

She's loving it. She's got the dress thing, pick a venue, flower, and she's deep in, whereas I feel guilty because I'm just like, ah, geez.

Speaker 1

03:04

Is it planned already? When's the wedding?

Speaker 2

03:06

You see Squid Game? I'm just living life. Yeah, it's planned.

Speaker 2

03:11

It's in New Orleans. I'm from there and it's next year. Are you married?

Speaker 1

03:16

No, single. Virgin? Of course, yeah.

Speaker 2

03:19

I can't imagine. I bet you'd be great in bed. You're ripped.

Speaker 2

03:22

You have the best hairline in podcasting.

Speaker 1

03:25

Yeah, I don't know. I haven't tried yet, so we'll have to see.

Speaker 2

03:27

All right, well, let me know. Pretty big hog on you? Yeah, I could see you packing a crazy, crazy tool downtown.

Speaker 2

03:36

That

Speaker 1

03:37

matters for girls?

Speaker 2

03:38

Apparently, yeah, that's all I hear about.

Speaker 1

03:41

Okay, New Orleans, you grew up in New Orleans?

Speaker 2

03:43

Yeah, born and raised. Treme, outside the French Quarter, you ever been?

Speaker 1

03:48

Yeah, don't remember it.

Speaker 2

03:50

Oh, you drink?

Speaker 1

03:51

Yeah, I drink, of course I drink. I don't

Speaker 2

03:53

know, I can't tell if you have fun.

Speaker 1

03:54

No, not really, but Russian, of course I drink vodka, all that kind of stuff. Oh, you're Russian. Yeah, yeah, yeah, gotta know.

Speaker 2

04:01

Vodka, Beer was just labeled an alcoholic beverage in 2011. Fun fact.

Speaker 1

04:06

What do you mean?

Speaker 2

04:06

In Russia. It was just drinks. It was just like apple juice before.

Speaker 2

04:10

It finally got declared legally as an alcoholic beverage.

Speaker 1

04:16

Which means you can regulate it, that kind of thing.

Speaker 2

04:18

I guess so. Yeah. See, that's where your brain goes.

Speaker 1

04:21

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2

04:21

I just go, oh, these fucking Ruskies are.

Speaker 1

04:22

I didn't even know there was rules about drinking. It's good, I'm learning about Russia from you. So what's the difficult memory, experience from childhood in New Orleans that made you the man you are today?

Speaker 2

04:38

I don't know if it made me the man, but geez, I had a lot of scuffles in the neighborhood. I was the white kid in the neighborhood. So I was automatically the odd man out, the minority, the weirdo, the dork, the dweeb, the honky.

Speaker 2

04:54

So just a lot of memories of like getting slapped in the face by guys and just having to take it because there's like 5 guys there. And they'd be like, oh, look, you don't even fight back. And you're like, what am I gonna do? Hit you and then get beat up by these guys.

Speaker 2

05:07

So a lot of that stuff was a big bummer growing up. Got robbed all the time, lost a lot of bicycles. Had a bicycle taken from under me, that was pretty brutal. These kids pulled up, they're like 17, and I was 13 and I had a face paint on.

Speaker 2

05:27

Like I had a, not black face, but I was at a summer camp And I had a rainbow face painted on me. We were helping kids that day. So I let him put paint on me. And so now I'm riding home.

Speaker 2

05:38

What a mark, what a goober I am. I'm riding home and these guys see me a mile away. I'm a sitting duck and they go, we can take his bike. He's got a fucking rainbow on his cheek.

Speaker 2

05:47

So they just go, hey, like, cut in front of you. They go, let me try your bike. I go, I'm good, I'm good. I knew what they wanted.

Speaker 2

05:54

And they go, let me try the bike. And then they just pushed me and took the bike. So stuff like that was really shaping the insecurity, the self-worth.

Speaker 1

06:05

They did, because I've been mugged when I was younger, too. Really? Yeah, it changes your view of human nature

Speaker 2

06:12

a little bit. For sure, you go, wow, I didn't know People could be this mean, this cruel, inconsiderate. I'm always worried about it.

Speaker 2

06:20

Did I fart too much? Am I annoying? Am I pissing this guy off? But what a way to live.

Speaker 2

06:25

Just I want the bike, I'm taking it. Fuck his feelings.

Speaker 1

06:30

For me, that quickly turned into realizing that that's just a temporary phase that those folks are in. Like they have a capacity to be good. Sure.

Speaker 1

06:40

For some reason, for me, that was a motivation to see, can we discover, can we incentivize them to find like a better path in life? Like I wasn't like all like, I don't know, Gandhi about it. You know, of course I was pissed and all those kinds of things, but I don't know, it seemed like just the kind of thing you might do when you're younger.

Speaker 2

07:03

You hope, but it's adult crime, obviously.

Speaker 1

07:07

Yeah, I know, but yeah, exactly. And then it solidifies, and then you're beyond saving at some point. But it's like there's always an opportunity to make a better life for yourself, to become a better version of yourself.

Speaker 2

07:22

Yeah, and I remember coming home crying with no bike, and my mom, my parents are like liberal to a fault, you know, where they were like, oh, well, they need it. They're poor kids in the neighborhood. And you're like, all right.

Speaker 2

07:34

But I also have a bicycle that I ride around, you know, and I also like to live in an area that's not just, you know, riddled with theft and vandalism, but they were just like, ah, they need it. And then it was a moot point, we just moved on. So I remember very young being like, all right, I gotta figure my shit out.

Speaker 1

07:53

Okay, so you said you were beat up quite a bit, like bullying and stuff?

Speaker 2

07:57

Pushed around, I was never hospitalized or anything, but you know, you get a black guy here and there and a bloody nose, stuff like that. And it was just the outnumbered thing. The violence didn't really bother me because you're just kids, you're boys.

Speaker 2

08:10

But it was the predatory, let's get him, we can take him down, He's an easy target. That's what kills you, the mental part.

Speaker 1

08:22

Yeah, until you actually said that, I didn't realize. I've been in, what do you call them, scuffles. And There's just 1 that stands out to me where, yeah.

Speaker 2

08:32

Let's hear it, Fatty. Bring it on. And you do jujitsu and all that stuff, right?

Speaker 2

08:36

Yeah, I can see the guns through the suit. You're like John Wick.

Speaker 1

08:40

All right. All right. Well, I used to have, now you're gonna start making fun of me.

Speaker 1

08:43

I used to have long hair for like a couple of years. I was in a band playing music and stuff like that. And there was, like most of the fights I've been in were basically one-on-one, maybe a little bit like, a little extra stuff, but not outnumbered. And this 1 particular time, I've learned a lot of lessons, but 1 of them was, there was a fight started between me and this other person, and then his buddies, I guess, were there.

Speaker 1

09:12

And they, as opposed to breaking it up or letting it happen, 1 of them grabbed my hair. It's the first time anybody grabbed, like used my hair in a fight, which I've since then realized that that's actually a really powerful grip and a powerful weapon.

Speaker 2

09:27

Oh, very vulnerable of you.

Speaker 1

09:29

And then my head got pulled back and they pulled me down to the ground. Like I couldn't do anything. It was so, I remember being exceptionally frustrated.

Speaker 1

09:37

Yes. That was the feeling like I can't do anything here. I'm like trapped. And then they were just like kicking me and hitting me and stuff like that.

Speaker 1

09:45

And the outnumbered part of it, because I always kind of remember the trapped part because I just hated from a fighting grappling perspective, how like, the feeling was this isn't fair.

Speaker 2

09:58

Yes, that's what it is. It's a deep, deep unfairness. Yeah.

Speaker 2

10:02

That you just can't, you can't win. The mob wins.

Speaker 1

10:05

Yeah, the mob wins.

Speaker 2

10:06

Scary stuff, but it makes a man out of you in a weird way that builds character. You realize life isn't fair early, and you go on from there. So There's something there.

Speaker 2

10:15

And look at you today. They're probably eating out of a dumpster at a Krispy Kreme and you're here. Got 8 podcasts. You're doing great talking to giant titans of the industry.

Speaker 1

10:26

No, I do remember returning home that night. I mean, you said you were crying. That's really formative.

Speaker 1

10:33

Like, that's the point at which you get to decide what do I make of this moment? And especially when you're younger, maybe it's not presented to you that way, but like some of the greatest people in history were bullied in these kinds of ways. And they made something of themselves in this moment. Like bullied by life in some kind of way.

Speaker 1

10:51

It's like an opportunity for growth. It's weird, but like hardship, even in small doses, is like an opportunity for growth.

Speaker 2

11:00

Totally, I mean, look at Richard Pryor, they say he's labeled as the best comedian of all time. Grew up in a whorehouse, watched his mom get plowed by these guys in the middle of Indiana, I wanna say. And just, who had a harder life?

Speaker 2

11:12

Who would suck dick for drugs, all this stuff growing up, beat up. And then the weird thing is, oops, sorry, that's my birth control alarm. And then the whole world is trying to get rid of bullying, but we still do bullying, but now it's accepted bullying. It's very strange.

Speaker 1

11:30

So you're a proponent of beating kids up, is that what

Speaker 2

11:33

you're saying? Yes, and sex with them. All right.

Speaker 2

11:36

But no, I just think it's part of life and it's horrible, it's like rain, you gotta have it. Look, a rainy day is a bummer, you know, but you need it. And I think it's similar to that.

Speaker 1

11:49

What was your relationship like with your mom, your dad? What are some memorable moments with them? What did you learn from them?

Speaker 2

11:56

Good parents, they're giving, thoughtful, a little out to lunch, you know, they were workaholics, so it was hard to get a lot out of them. And my dad was kind of an angry dad. I think he just had like a weird childhood and he's just trying to make it and he's trying to provide, but it's hard.

Speaker 2

12:16

And we live in this horrible neighborhood and we're getting robbed all the time So life was kind of coming down on him all the time so then he'll take it out on you or whoever he would snap But great parents they cared they put us first but there wasn't a lot of Honey, see the you know you ever go to a friend's house as a kid and there's a picture of a ski trip, and you're like, ski trip? What the hell is that about? It wasn't a lot of that, and smart, very smart people, but I don't know how well they were at socializing.

Speaker 1

12:49

So you never bonded with them on a deep human level?

Speaker 2

12:52

There was some bonding, but rarely deep. Yeah, it was just almost coworker. Hey, cold out, huh?

Speaker 2

12:59

What? It's cold out, huh?

Speaker 1

13:01

Oh yeah, like that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2

13:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

13:02

Yeah, yeah, gotcha.

Speaker 2

13:03

Get there a little bit, but it, my parents, and I hope they never hear this, but they would do a thing where, my dad especially would do a thing where he would, he knew how to cut you down right to the bone. And so after a while you're like, I'm not even gonna interact with this guy because he can get you so well. 1 time we were at a Thanksgiving, some kind of family event, and all the cousins are there, and I remember I was holding court.

Speaker 2

13:26

I was a young boy, finding my comedic legs in this weird, tumultuous sea we call a family, and I was killing. And my dad comes out and he goes, what are you, holding court? And I was like, ah, and I felt like I was this big. I just shrunk down.

Speaker 2

13:44

He just nailed it, Because in my head I'm like, I'm holding court, look at me, I got the whole room. And he goes, what are you, what are you holding court here? And I'm like, who the hell do

Speaker 1

13:51

you think you are?

Speaker 2

13:51

And I was like, he's right, I shouldn't be holding court, who the fuck am I, I'm nobody. So stuff like that.

Speaker 1

13:57

Was he aware of that, you think?

Speaker 2

13:58

He wasn't, he wasn't, I don't think he

Speaker 1

14:00

was, but. Do you give parents a pass when they're unaware of the destructive, like, is it better when they're unaware? Because it seems like that's the way.

Speaker 1

14:11

That's true. That's the way parents often fail, is they're not intentionally malevolent. They're just like clueless.

Speaker 2

14:20

Yeah, it's a bittersweet thing, because you're like, well, okay, he's not malicious, he's not trying to hurt me, but also, he doesn't know he hurt me. I don't know, it's tough, because if he was trying to hurt you, I guess that would be worse.

Speaker 1

14:35

So you're the fully baked Mark Norman cake at this point.

Speaker 2

14:40

Yeah, it's a shitty cake. Do you... Fruit salad.

Speaker 1

14:45

You know, the sense of self-worth you mentioned. I think in your comedy, there's a sense like you hate yourself.

Speaker 2

14:52

You think?

Speaker 1

14:53

When I listen.

Speaker 2

14:53

I didn't know if that came through. Shit, I was trying to hide that part. God damn it.

Speaker 1

14:58

I mean, when you like, in the privacy of your mind, are you able to love yourself or is it mostly self-hate?

Speaker 2

15:07

Geez, what happened to this podcast? I didn't know it was on Dr. Phil.

Speaker 1

15:11

Dr. Phil.

Speaker 2

15:11

I thought we were gonna talk about engineering and climate change and Rockets. We'll get there.

Speaker 1

15:17

Okay. Starts with love, goes to rockets.

Speaker 2

15:20

All right, I like that. I like that's a t-shirt. I mean like.

Speaker 2

15:25

What's the question? Sorry. Do I feel love?

Speaker 1

15:29

No, no. I love myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

15:31

So are you, like this engine of being self-critical, of just being constantly anxious about how the world perceives you, these kinds of things, is this something that you just go to for comedy, or is this who you are as a human being?

Speaker 2

15:50

I think I don't wanna explore it. I think I get around it. You know, I tap dance around it, but I get it out a little with my act, maybe, because I can't do it.

Speaker 2

15:59

I'm not doing it in real life, so I'll get out this no love, not loving myself. I don't know, who wants to love themself? Everybody always like, you gotta love yourself, and then when you meet somebody who does love yourself, you're like, I fucking hate this guy. Don't you hate the guy who's upset?

Speaker 2

16:12

I'm great, I'm awesome, life is good. You're like, ah, this guy sucks. I'd rather an insecure guy. So maybe I wanna stay insecure.

Speaker 2

16:20

Maybe I don't wanna find this love for myself.

Speaker 1

16:22

Well, okay, so self-love, like just appreciating who you are or like appreciating the moment or being grateful doesn't have to express itself by the guy saying, I'm awesome. True. It's more just like humility.

Speaker 1

16:36

It's just like walking calmly through the world and just being grateful to be alive, that kind of thing. And just, and like, well, being appreciative of all the accomplishments that you made so far. I say all this because mostly I'm extremely self-critical in everything I do. Yeah.

Speaker 1

16:50

And so, and I kind of enjoy it. I think it's a nice little engine that it makes it fun. It makes life fun.

Speaker 2

16:58

It's great.

Speaker 1

16:58

Because it's like, if you hate everything you do, like you've done in the past, it gives you like, all right, we can do better.

Speaker 2

17:06

Yes, but that's the key is making yourself critical, always trying to get better. I could change this, I could tweak this, I could improve this. When you just go, I hate that I do this, I suck, You just shut down.

Speaker 2

17:16

So that's the key is always being productive with the criticism.

Speaker 1

17:21

Yeah, and the basics of life, I'm just grateful for it, to be alive. That's nice to be a couple of that with some criticism.

Speaker 2

17:27

2 legs, again, the hairline, the hog, the muscles, the world, you got a good brain on you. I mean, you're lucky, you're in the top, you know, most people are fat as shit at Burger King right now hitting their kids. You're in a Ramada hotel sitting with a low-level comedian.

Speaker 1

17:47

For the record, I ate McDonald's last night.

Speaker 2

17:49

Oh, all right, well, you're human.

Speaker 1

17:52

Well, just so you know, this is not me defending, I'm not sponsored by McDonald's, but I mostly eat meat, and there's nothing wrong with the beef they have. It's actually 1 of the easiest ways late at night. I think it's horse.

Speaker 2

18:05

I don't know if it's actually cow.

Speaker 1

18:06

It's actually rats, yeah, you're right.

Speaker 2

18:09

But hey, it's just meat. I'm a meat guy myself. They say in 20 years we're gonna look back and go, can you believe people ate meat?

Speaker 2

18:16

It's not like somebody liked slavery. Yeah, there's some ethical, difficult things with factory farming. Yeah, so let's ride it out now while we still got it.

Speaker 1

18:26

And now it's on record. Tom Waits said something about New York. You like Tom Waits?

Speaker 2

18:32

I think he's underrated. I think he's got great, he's got a great, he's great at quips and quotes. Check him out on YouTube.

Speaker 2

18:39

He's got some montages and super cuts of him being hilarious.

Speaker 1

18:43

What does he say about, I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

Speaker 2

18:50

That was the 1. That was the 1 that sold me. I was like, this guy's awesome.

Speaker 1

18:53

Yeah, but his music, because he's just a genius musician.

Speaker 2

18:56

Yeah.

Speaker 1

18:57

Anyway, he was talking about New York. I was walking around these, I'm in New York right now. We're in New York right now.

Speaker 1

19:03

It's still a magical city to me. A lot of people are quite cynical about it, about the state of things. But not like Michael Malice, like a lot of friends of mine. They're just a lot of folks, I mean, San Francisco, New York, there's something about the pandemic where people have become quite cynical about the place they are and they try to escape.

Speaker 1

19:21

It's interesting. I mean, they're asking some difficult questions about what they are in life. They're having like a self-imposed midlife crisis. It's good, I think, for everybody to go through this process.

Speaker 1

19:32

But I think, I hope New York reemerges. It will. As the flourishing place for the weirdos. Anyway, Tom Waits said, New York, of course, is to be in endless surreal situations where a $50,000 gunmetal Mercedes pulls up in a puddle of blood and outsteps a 25-carat blonde with a $2 wristwatch.

Speaker 1

19:55

And he keeps going on. So like it's like a-

Speaker 2

19:58

That's like bars. He's like a rapper.

Speaker 1

20:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's good. But basically just the absurdity of it all, lots of money, lots of weirdos, degenerates, and dreamers, and the whole mix of it. Do you think that's an accurate description of what New York is today.

Speaker 1

20:19

Like, is there still place for the weirdos and just the interesting artists, the edgy, the comedians, the creators, the entrepreneurs, as opposed to like Wall Street, as opposed to like rich folk and then like hopeless folk.

Speaker 2

20:40

Yeah, I think it's definitely changed a lot. There's a tiny corner for us weirdo artists. New York used to be where you went to make it as a painter or whatever, a comedian or a singer.

Speaker 2

20:50

And there were all these dives and shit boxes and all these places you could go. And now it's more pink berries and Subway sandwiches and Chase Banks. So It's definitely lost a lot of its creative edge. It's just money, money keeps coming in, and now you see all these comedians moved to Nashville, Austin, Denver, whatever.

Speaker 2

21:09

So it doesn't have the power it used to have of like, you gotta be here if you wanna make it. That's definitely gone. So that hurt the city a lot. The city is way more soulless.

Speaker 2

21:22

When I moved here in 07, I mean, not only did I get mugged 3 times in the first year, but it was a hub of like, it felt like things were happening here. You know, it was an energy, it was electricity. And we still have the electricity, but it's also maybe just because it's Times Square, there's Soho, there's Wall Street. So we got the staples, but there is a little bit of that, it's almost like a marriage.

Speaker 2

21:45

Like, yeah, we're in love, but it's not as passionate as it once was. That's how I would equate New York.

Speaker 1

21:51

What gives you hope? You're pretty hopeful about it, though.

Speaker 2

21:54

I'm hopeful just because I know it's magical, and I think it has to be. I mean, it's the epicenter of America. Like, this is where the immigrants came, and this is where the stock market is, and the entertainment industry, a lot of it is here.

Speaker 2

22:08

So I think it's gonna happen, but something like the bottom has to fall out, and then People have to move back here and all that. So something, the corporations are kind of fucking us. They're just buying everything.

Speaker 1

22:20

Well, that's true for everything. That's true for everything. It's true for Austin probably as well.

Speaker 1

22:24

People are just buying out land and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2

22:27

You always hear of Hemingway and Dali and all these guys went to Paris in the 20s or whatever that was, I get it now. I used to be like, why do these guys go to Paris? You know, why do these artists?

Speaker 2

22:38

And now I get it, because it's like, it's freer there. That's why Austin became like that Paris, where everybody's like, I got to get out of LA, I'm going there. And, but we came back from that, you know, the 70s were wild and 90s were cool. So maybe it'll come back.

Speaker 2

22:54

Might just take a decade.

Speaker 1

22:55

Well, there's always, that's how stories are told. There's always pockets of like Paris within New York. True, true.

Speaker 1

23:03

There's just an opportunity to let your weird flourish is there in New York, I'm sure. There, I mean.

Speaker 2

23:12

It's there, you gotta find it. Before it was front and center.

Speaker 1

23:16

What's your favorite thing about New York? Like what kind of things just like?

Speaker 2

23:21

I mean, how long is this pod? I could go on. It's too much to put into 1 hour.

Speaker 2

23:27

We've got other questions, but I love that 1 neighborhood is wildly different than the next. I'm in Little Italy, and then you take 4 steps, now I'm in Chinatown. I mean, and then the history there, and then the stories, and the food, and the culture, and all that. And then you go 10 feet over here, and now you're in Brooklyn, and this is insane, it's a whole other world.

Speaker 2

23:47

And it's almost like a little America in 1 city. And it's great. And just the fact that they pulled it off, like Fifth Avenue goes way up and you're like, there's a billionaire's house next to a hobo. And then this is a black guy who's fighting with a Cuban guy and an Asian guy is trying to get in the middle of them and the cabbies from the Middle East.

Speaker 2

24:10

And there's so many beautiful women here and there's so many brilliant minds here. And the pace is great. It keeps people moving. I mean, it just, you can't beat it.

Speaker 2

24:18

I mean, the city will fuck you in the ass too. Don't get me wrong. You land at JFK and you're like, oh God, I got mugged. My Uber driver called me a homo.

Speaker 2

24:27

I stepped in human shit. Where the fuck am I? So yeah, it's bad news, but that bad news, it's almost like the bullying. It kills you in a weird way, but it makes you stronger and you build more layers and layers and layers.

Speaker 2

24:40

That's why some new guy, some hayseed from Milwaukee shows up, you've been here 10 years and you go, let me help you out, because you got addressed. You're gonna get your ass kicked for like 6 months. But I know the rope's a little, and I think you need a little of that. If the treadmill's not on, you're not gonna run.

Speaker 2

25:00

New York, the treadmill's on, so it just makes you run and it makes you better. And look, it wears on you. You probably lose 10 years of your life living in New York versus Indianapolis, but it's a better life. Have you seen 25th Hour?

Speaker 2

25:14

Yeah, it's been a while. Spike Lee joint?

Speaker 1

25:17

Yeah, Spike Lee joint. I mean, Ed Norton, there's a whole monologue there about New York. Oh, that's right.

Speaker 1

25:25

But they're talking about just, he has like a mix. There's like melancholy music, I think, or just a melancholy feel to the whole thing, but there's an anger and a disgust with the city. But through the anger and the disgust comes out like a love for the city. Same with, was Taxi Driver in

Speaker 2

25:42

New York? Oh yeah, it's gorgeous.

Speaker 1

25:45

Yeah, so like that, there's something about that. What is that? What is that grit of the city that pushes you down?

Speaker 2

25:55

Well, that's the beauty of the city is it's this tribal human nature, like the sex shops and fistfights and racism and all this tension, but yet it's the epicenter of technology and finance and sophistication on Fifth Avenue. So you get that juxtaposish. It's kind of like in Boston.

Speaker 2

26:14

You go to Boston, they got MIT, they got Harvard, they got all this shit. And then they got the fishermen, the blue collar douchebags, the Irish guys, the immigrants, you know, and you get that mix of like insanely smart with wicked pisser and these 2 worlds. And that's a good thing. It's like when a black guy fucks an Asian lady, that's a good looking kid.

Speaker 2

26:35

You get a mix. We're mixing 2 totally different things that are coming together and it makes it, it's like peanut butter and chocolate.

Speaker 1

26:43

Peanut butter and chocolate, I've never tried that. What? Peanut butter, maybe I have.

Speaker 2

26:47

What are you talking about? I'm talking about Reese's, man.

Speaker 1

26:48

Like Reese's, yeah, yeah, yeah. The best candy. Yeah.

Speaker 1

26:53

Without the fakeness of LA, without the kind of, with the facade.

Speaker 2

27:00

Yeah, LA's tough.

Speaker 1

27:02

What's the difference between LA comedy and New York comedy to you?

Speaker 2

27:08

I think 1 place you kind of go to make it and be discovered and be loved, and 1 place you go, You can get all that in New York too, but I think in New York, it's more of a school, a bootcamp of comedy. Let's make great comedy. Let's make original comedy.

Speaker 2

27:23

Let's watch the other guys and gals who are at the show, at the clubs, and learn from them, and try to hang out with them, and absorb some of them. And in LA, it's like, when am I on? I'm next, get out of my way. I'm the star here.

Speaker 2

27:39

I'm a bigger star than you. Oh, this guy's actually a big star. I gotta outwork, you know, it's a lot of that instead of like, damn, that was funny. I gotta be that funny.

Speaker 2

27:47

Damn, I wish I had a joke. And look, I don't wanna speak for LA Comics because there's Bill Burr, Anthony Jelzilek, these brilliant LA comics, but they all cut their teeth in New York, just saying. Then they moved to LA.

Speaker 1

28:00

That's a good point.

Speaker 2

28:00

You know, Ali Wong, all these people, killer comics, but New York, started New York, moved to New York.

Speaker 1

28:07

There is something about comics that stay in New York for a long time, though, like Dave Vitello.

Speaker 2

28:11

Ah, you know about Dave?

Speaker 1

28:12

Yeah, yeah, he wants to do this podcast.

Speaker 2

28:14

He does?

Speaker 1

28:15

Yeah, I'm a huge fan of David Tango.

Speaker 2

28:16

But it's

Speaker 1

28:17

like, it almost like he doesn't want to make it. I don't know. I mean, you probably know him, but like it feels like you just, maybe it's romanticizing it, but you're like, you almost just love the art of comedy, of like becoming funnier, crafting the jokes, becoming funnier than the other comics, like competing with each other kind of thing, not over like money or fame or any of that, just purely the comedy of it.

Speaker 2

28:43

Totally, that's Dave, that's him in a nutshell. He's like that guy in the movies in the 80s, action movies where they're like, they go up to a creek in Montana and some guy's living in a cabin and he's sharpening a stick and they go, the Russians are coming, they're invading, we need you, you're the best commando. And he's like, I gave that up, man.

Speaker 2

28:59

I'm done with that lifestyle. They're like, but you're the best, we need you. And he has to suit up eventually. You know, he looks at a picture of his dead wife and he goes, fuck it, I'm going.

Speaker 2

29:07

And then they, you know, fight the Rooskies. But he's that guy. He just is gifted. He's like got a gift from Allah and he's the best.

Speaker 1

29:16

Yeah, a lot of comics give him props. It's always surprising to me. I didn't, because, surprising to me because he hasn't really made it like big.

Speaker 2

29:25

Well, he did in the 90s. He was huge. He had his own TV show.

Speaker 2

29:28

He was the boy.

Speaker 1

29:29

Yeah, yeah, that show was awesome. But I mean like as big as I think he deserves to be.

Speaker 2

29:34

Well, that's art. The mainstream shit is always the worst. It's like McDonald's versus some hole in the wall.

Speaker 2

29:40

I know I'm shitting on McDonald's again, but it's good. And you know, certain comics we could name are good, but the delicacy is gonna be less talked about and less household namey than the mainstream hacky shit.

Speaker 1

29:57

Yeah, it's funny, because he hasn't, I think he was on Joe Rogan's show once, maybe. Yeah, once or twice. And he was with somebody else.

Speaker 2

30:07

Jeff Ross?

Speaker 1

30:08

Yeah, he met him with Jeff Ross. Oh yeah, because they did that like 2 mics thing.

Speaker 2

30:12

Oh, with mics, yeah. Yeah. But he's the quickest guy.

Speaker 2

30:16

There's no 1 funnier.

Speaker 1

30:18

Yeah, yeah, him and you, you're super quick. Your appearance on, recent appearance on Roguelands is hilarious.

Speaker 2

30:24

Oh, thanks.

Speaker 1

30:25

Just so fast. You're on with Ari and... Shane Gillis.

Speaker 2

30:30

Shane Gillis. Yeah, that was fun. We're going back in January.

Speaker 2

30:33

Not when this comes out.

Speaker 1

30:35

This is never coming out.

Speaker 2

30:37

Neither will you. We're having fun.

Speaker 1

30:41

Yep. All right, so what does it feel like to bomb in stand-up comedy? Like to fail? Maybe the psychology of it first.

Speaker 1

30:52

Like, just take me through it. Because we're talking about being outnumbered in a fight, just being beat up.

Speaker 2

30:58

Very similar. By the way, this is like a no eye contact off. Yeah.

Speaker 2

31:03

Yeah. We're both uncomfortable with that. Yeah,

Speaker 1

31:06

it's great.

Speaker 2

31:06

It's kind of nice to be with my people. But yeah, it's probably- Do you need to shoot

Speaker 1

31:10

a paper to look at or?

Speaker 2

31:12

I'm going, I got a good sweet spot right there. Nice.

Speaker 1

31:15

Yeah,

Speaker 2

31:16

it's a nightmare, but it's part of it. You know, it's the validation too is the worst part. Because you know, whenever you do comedy and kill, you can be a great comic, but even David Tell, these brilliant guys, they feel like they're getting, You feel like you're getting away with something.

Speaker 2

31:31

I don't have a day job, I'm telling jokes for a living, I'm talking about my dick up here and they're fucking loving me and they call me a genius and all this. I'm talking about my sack, you know? And it's great, it makes people happy and it's funny, but that bombing, when you bomb, your first thought is like, yeah, you're right. At first you're like, fuck you guys.

Speaker 2

31:50

What, you don't like this shit? And then you just start going in. You're like, maybe it isn't that good. Maybe they're right.

Speaker 2

31:55

I do suck. I knew I sucked. I should become a mailman, you know? And it stinks and you feel alone.

Speaker 2

32:03

And you feel like you wasted their time. And then you're like, what was I thinking? I could be a comedian. What the fuck?

Speaker 2

32:08

Who am I? Eddie Murphy? What am I doing here? So it's a lot of just spiraling out of horrible thoughts.

Speaker 2

32:16

But I also love that it hurts so bad. Bombing fucking hurts because now everybody doesn't do it. I think a lot more people could do comedy probably and figure it out, but the bombing is so brutal that it keeps, 1 time I went to Minneapolis, I was like, this is a great city, the sun is shining, why isn't this city packed? And they're like, because the winters are so bad and we love it because it keeps everybody out.

Speaker 2

32:38

And I feel the same about comedy, the bombs are so brutal. I've had bombs where I'm in bed, I'm just staring at the ceiling like, what the fuck was that? Like you have PTSD. I bombed at an arena once, 20,000 people.

Speaker 2

32:49

I did 30 minutes to silence.

Speaker 1

32:52

I guess- So it's not just

Speaker 2

32:54

like 1

Speaker 1

32:54

joke fails. Oh yeah. It's like, they start piling on, like it's irrecoverable.

Speaker 2

32:58

Yes, and 1 joke failing is very common. Like a lot of audience don't even notice that bomb, because you know, you got so many jokes in a row, you can sandwich a good 1, then a bad 1, then a good 1, but when you bomb, it's almost like they chose, we don't like you. Nothing you say will redeem yourself.

Speaker 2

33:14

And it's hard to get out of. It's like being pulled down by your hair. You can't get back. I can't win this fight no matter what.

Speaker 1

33:21

Can you get him back by acknowledging the elf in the room?

Speaker 2

33:26

That helps, but they're still gonna go, and that was funny when he made fun of it, but he sucks.

Speaker 1

33:31

He still sucks. He still sucks.

Speaker 2

33:33

That's the worst part. You're going, no, this is good. You guys just don't like me.

Speaker 2

33:37

Just because you don't like me doesn't mean I'm bad.

Speaker 1

33:39

Yeah, I like going to open mics a lot, just listening because, First of all, I think the audience in the open mic, at least the ones I've been to, is most, I guess, other comedians, or at least people who don't seem to wanna laugh at anything. And so I just love it, because it's human nature and perseverance that is best. But here's comedians, like clearly, this is mostly in Austin, they have a dream.

Speaker 1

34:06

Like why would you get up there?

Speaker 2

34:07

Right. Maybe some weird, you know, New Year's resolution bullshit, but for the most part, It's people who wanna be comedians.

Speaker 1

34:16

Like a lot of the open micers are people who clearly have done this for quite a long time already. Like at least a year or 2, maybe 5 years. And they're often not very funny.

Speaker 1

34:29

And just bombing in front of an audience of like 20, where they're just sitting there, almost like mocking them with their eyes, or maybe, and I don't know, and they still push through. They still, as if they're doing an arena and everybody's laughing. They still got that energy trying, almost like to an audience that doesn't exist, like an audience of their dreams, because I guess you have to do that to keep the energy of the act going. And it's just so beautiful to watch them try it.

Speaker 1

35:08

And also what happens, open mic, I don't know, 5 minutes, whatever they do, they walk off and then walk back offstage. And you can't, who do they look at? Like, what do you, do you make eye contact with people? Do you?

Speaker 2

35:25

You look at your phone, you look at your feet, you just zone out. You kinda, woo, you kinda go white. You just hear a white noise and go out.

Speaker 2

35:34

It's tough. But you need a little delusion to be a comedian. To get into it, it takes a little bit of delusion. Like, you think you can do this?

Speaker 2

35:44

You know, you got 10 years ahead of you of hell, and you're up for this. And you know, most comics, we see a horrible crowd, and we see our friend bomb, and we go, yeah, he's bombing, but I'll get him. I'll get him. And then you don't get him.

Speaker 2

35:58

But that's human nature too, is like, they don't like him, but they'll like me. And you need a little of that to keep going as a comedian. But you don't want too much delusion because then you're a psycho. But you need a little.

Speaker 1

36:11

Well, the psycho could be good for a comedy.

Speaker 2

36:13

That's true too, a lot of psychos.

Speaker 1

36:15

I mentioned to you offline that I talked to Elon and we talked about doing standup, that he's thinking maybe do a few minutes of standup. I was gonna say,

Speaker 2

36:23

if you need a coach, Elon, I gotcha.

Speaker 1

36:27

Well, maybe you should move to Austin to coach him full time.

Speaker 2

36:30

Hopefully he can fly me in.

Speaker 1

36:32

So what advice would you give to somebody who wants to try to do 5 minutes? Like the early steps of trying to go to an open mic and say something funny.

Speaker 2

36:46

Well, that's the irony of comedy is, I don't know if it's irony, but it's like, the beginning is the hardest part. Usually the beginning is the easy part. Hey, I'm playing this level of Mario.

Speaker 2

36:55

I'd start, I'd jump over 1 Koopa Troopa, whatever. And then the end is like, Jesus Christ, I got 30 guys coming at me. Comedy is the opposite. The beginning is like, it's a gauntlet.

Speaker 2

37:04

It's just obstacles and it's like you said, open mics. I watch these famous comedians on Netflix and you go, this would all bomb on an open mic. They're killing in Radio City. This would bomb on an open mic.

Speaker 2

37:15

That's the weird part. So it's almost like you have to go through hell just to get to the promised land. And I would say rehearse the shit out of it because you're gonna get frazzled up there. Everybody thinks, oh, this is good material.

Speaker 2

37:28

But you also forget about the other part of delivering it, having confidence, being likable, having timing, having a cadence, figuring out who you are, figuring out what the audience thinks you are or how they perceive you. Because you can go up there and say all this, but they go, well, that's the guy, he's clearly gay. Why is he acting like he's not gay? Now they're not listening to the joke.

Speaker 2

37:47

So like, you gotta know how you look. And it's just repetition, repetition. And bombing is not failure. That's what you gotta remember.

Speaker 2

37:55

I mean, look, if you do a killer hour and then you take it to Netflix and bomb, You fucked up. But bombing is not failure, it's just data. It's going, oh, okay, I gotta retool that, that didn't work, something's wrong there, I missed a word there. So you gotta treat the act almost like ingredients in a cooking, in a dish.

Speaker 2

38:19

You know, like, oh, I put too many eggs in. Take an egg out. You gotta treat it like that. And look, when you pull a bad cake out of an oven, you go, I fucked up.

Speaker 2

38:27

But it doesn't hurt your feelings. But when you bomb and fuck up, it hurts your feelings. So you gotta factor that in too. Your feelings are gonna be hurt, and just almost be a robot and just keep going towards that open mic.

Speaker 2

38:39

You know how scary an open mic is? Bombing sucks, but bombing in front of other comedians is way worse, because They know what just happened, and they could have saved you, and they didn't. So it's way worse.

Speaker 1

38:51

And they're gonna be your quote-unquote friends for this journey.

Speaker 2

38:56

Yeah, no, these are evil people, mostly. Twisted, fucked up people.

Speaker 1

39:02

Can you tell, in those early days, let's just talk about that, like at the open mic level, that a joke is gonna be good on paper? Like, I'll give you my experience, because maybe you could be my coach in this particular moment. Please.

Speaker 1

39:18

So. I'll be like Larry Nassar.

Speaker 2

39:20

All right. That's fun, huh? Joking everybody, I hope nobody takes it seriously.

Speaker 1

39:27

There's, I now have an amazing team of folks who help me with editing and they're now currently sweating. You should watch this.

Speaker 2

39:34

You gotta leave that 1 in, that was quick.

Speaker 1

39:35

Yeah, that was pretty good.

Speaker 2

39:36

I'll eat that 1.

Speaker 1

39:37

That was good. All right, so going in front of an audience, just even to give a lecture terrifies me, which I've done, but open mic, I mean, that to me, perhaps that's why I like going to open mics and listening, is because I just, it terrifies me so much, that idea of going up there and bombing. I mean, it's scary, And to do even like 1 minute, to be honest, is scary.

Speaker 1

40:07

And 5 minutes, I'm also watched enough open mics to realize that 5 minutes is a long time. I mean, it depends on your comedy, but if you're doing fast stuff, 5 minutes is a really long time. Oh, it's eternity. I guess with a long story, 2 is a long time because if the story's not, you're building up to something.

Speaker 1

40:28

If the story's gonna fail, you just spent all that time telling the story that completely went flat. Got nothing. I guess if you have a series of jokes, you can at least try to recover and do the Mitch Hedberg thing where like, all right, I'll cross that off.

Speaker 2

40:43

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

40:45

Well, I'm able to, I've tried to write a few things, and I'm able to tell that it's really bad.

Speaker 2

40:51

Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, well that's better than most. Most people's egos kick in and go, no, this is good.

Speaker 1

40:56

No, see, I'm able to introspect that, like it seems funny. I mean, I guess the thing I'm looking for is original. Like there's easy stuff that you think is funny, but to me, originality is the thing you should be looking for.

Speaker 1

41:12

Because then that's what's actually becomes funny. Like, or rather, if it's original, even if it bombs, that feels like more a beautiful art creation that you did. Like, at least you swung for it. Like, you did something unique.

Speaker 1

41:31

Because even with open mic, your first 5 minutes, there's so many, just go to enough open mics, you'll hear all the, there's a list of jokes that you can just go to. First of all, you can make fun of the fact that you're at an open mic, that you're doing this for the first time and so on. You could do a lot of stuff where you make fun of your appearance in some way and so on. But like, yeah, you could do that, you know, that takes actually, that's way harder than people realize to do it in an original way.

Speaker 2

41:59

Yes.

Speaker 1

42:00

To present who you are as a person very quickly, enough to then put that person down in front of everybody else. So you have to reveal the...

Speaker 2

42:11

The audience is like that, because they go, he knows what we're thinking.

Speaker 1

42:13

Yeah, exactly. But do it again in an original way. And so when I'm trying to write stuff, not that I've tried long, it's like 30 minutes, but enough to see like, oh shit, to write something original is really difficult.

Speaker 2

42:30

It is, but do you got a bit, anything?

Speaker 1

42:32

No, I don't. You

Speaker 2

42:32

didn't write any 1 line or anything?

Speaker 1

42:34

For this, no.

Speaker 2

42:35

Well, just in general, ever in your life, ever written a joke?

Speaker 1

42:38

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2

42:39

Oh, okay.

Speaker 1

42:39

No, but I don't have anything in my mind popped up. So the jokes that I've written have more, like, for some reason, my mind goes to, like, dark places. So, you know, like, and not actually dark in the Mark Norman dark because you go really dark to where it's almost absurd.

Speaker 1

43:02

My natural inclination is to go to like a dark historical place like Hitler and Stalin. And almost, so go to that place and then talk about something absurd there. So don't go all the way, I don't know, I don't wanna give examples because it'll be clipped, but the Mark Norma style, look it up, He has a special on his YouTube. That kind, I want to almost explore the dark aspects of human nature more kind of connected to actual historical figures.

Speaker 1

43:45

That's the inclination. Like, I don't know, Nature's Metal, the Instagram channel that explores like the darkness of nature. Like something there.

Speaker 2

43:55

See, that's good that you already know that you've kind of gotten to the core of your comedy already. And that's interesting. That's a step ahead.

Speaker 1

44:03

Yeah, I can hear, with most things that I do in life, I can hear the music from a distance, like in myself, like, okay, if you have anything, this is the direction it'll be, without actually knowing exactly all the steps. And that's a nice motivation to be like, all right, well, if you do this for a long time, maybe you'll have a chance to get there. But you have to, that's where it's a feature to be super self-critical, I think.

Speaker 1

44:27

But then that's why it's fucking terrifying to walk up to a stage, stand there, and probably forget everything.

Speaker 2

44:34

Yeah, that's the other part nobody thinks about. Just goes right out of your head. You go fight or flight, it's ugly.

Speaker 2

44:39

My first years were horrific bombing, horrific stammering, horrific not remembering the punchline. Like you got, maybe you got a little setup going and they're kind of on board and you're like, ah, how's that, camera, camera out goes. And you just hate yourself. It's a nightmare, but you've already kind of, maybe if you haven't done standup or whatever, but you kind of know your voice and that's, That's pretty advanced.

Speaker 1

45:02

So you're not trying to be somebody else. I guess, yeah, just for having done like podcasts and lecture and so on.

Speaker 2

45:09

That helps.

Speaker 1

45:10

I've already done some of the work of the stand-ups do, which is embarrass yourself in front of others for prolonged periods of time. Yes. Yeah, so I'd done that without actually developing the funny.

Speaker 2

45:22

Right, right, right.

Speaker 1

45:23

But maybe the funny just is not that difficult to develop. No, it's super difficult, of course, but I mean, maybe the essential work of a standup comedian is just the embarrassment of like finding who you are.

Speaker 2

45:35

Yeah, that's a part of it for sure. You know, in the beginning you're like, water bottle, what's funny about water bottle? I'm a funny guy, I can make this funny, but that's not it, you know?

Speaker 2

45:44

It's your shit, your shit, like your dark stuff. For me, I tend to gravitate towards dark, but in a weird way where people will say like, hey, don't objectify women, but then they go, Caitlyn Jenner's beautiful. And you're like, well, wait, I know something's off here. Why can you objectify her, but not the supermodel?

Speaker 2

46:05

So what's going on there? And I like to play with that. So I have this joke where I say, Caitlyn Jenner, oh, women go, Caitlyn Jenner's beautiful, beautiful woman. I go, well, you look like her, and they go, fuck you.

Speaker 2

46:17

And you're like, there's a lot of truth there. But I like exploring that kind of, oh, you're trying to get 1 over on me, or you're lying to yourself, or what are we doing here? And I like that kind of comedy. I don't see color.

Speaker 2

46:30

Well, I'm black. No, you're not. Ah, you know, that's fun, because you're lying.

Speaker 1

46:37

Yeah, okay, so like big time comedians, such as yourself, don't like to think of yourself in this way. But Yeah, this is like where you over philosophize comedy, but.

Speaker 2

46:50

Yeah, definitely. It seems like comedians. Don't say important.

Speaker 2

46:55

Nothing worse than a comedian who thinks they're important.

Speaker 1

46:58

Yeah. So I was going, I was trying to find, As I was trying to say these words, I realized how cliche it is and how uninteresting it is. So I'm going to just, but there is something.

Speaker 2

47:09

I'm worried this whole thing is uninteresting. I'm like, who cares about comedy? There's like 6 comics on the planet.

Speaker 2

47:13

But nobody cares. Okay. I trust you in the pilot seat. You know what you're doing.

Speaker 2

47:19

You got listeners.

Speaker 1

47:20

They've tuned out long ago.

Speaker 2

47:23

Dan Carlin on here, huh? Is he around?

Speaker 1

47:25

Yeah, we were just going back and forth on Twitter just now. He's a huge fan. He was on here before, he'll be back.

Speaker 1

47:31

I've been actually really trying to volunteer myself aggressively with Dan Carlin for like a Russian episode where I could speak Russian. I, there's certain documents, same way I talk with Jaco about this too, certain things, I mean I just love the challenge of bringing Russian documents that I can read in Russian and then can translate and can try to capture the depth of the writing in the Russian language and communicate it to the American audience. So much is lost in translation. Like there's so much pain and poetry in the Russian language it's just connected to the culture.

Speaker 1

48:10

Every language, not every language, but many languages are uniquely able to capture the culture of the people. I mean, in some way, they're the representation of the culture of the people. And so Russian is definitely that. It represents the full history and culture of the 20th century with all the atrocities, all the broken promises, all those kinds of things.

Speaker 2

48:32

Norm says Russian literature is, it's the most tapped into human existence than anything else. Norm. McDonald.

Speaker 2

48:40

Yeah. Big Russian literature guy. Dostoevsky, all that shit.

Speaker 1

48:45

It's funny that there is a gap with comedians too. There's a culture of Russian comedy, like stand-up comedians that are totally.

Speaker 2

48:52

Yeah, right?

Speaker 1

48:53

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2

48:53

I don't know these Russians.

Speaker 1

48:55

I mean, I don't know today. Oh, 0, okay.

Speaker 2

48:57

I mean

Speaker 1

48:58