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Speaker 1

02:00:00

It's this transformation that we're actually talking about. This whole men are mortal, we go by. I'm sort of, you know, you're saying, are you comfortable with growing old? I'm like, duh, I was since I was 16.

Speaker 1

02:00:10

And what's really interesting is that, you know, again, when I was 12 years old in our summer house in Greece, I remember sort of telling my sister my outlook that I would have as a father for how to bring up my own kids. So it's very weird that I've always sort of seen the full path from, you know, a kid. From when you were young. Yeah, I don't know if you like this Joni Mitchell song, I've looked at clouds from both sides now, from up and down and still somehow, it's snow's illusions I recall.

Speaker 1

02:00:41

It's clouds illusions I recall, I really don't know clouds at all. So It's really beautiful. So I think the Jonny Mitchell song, which again, I heard for the first time much, much after this, and I wouldn't even compare this to that. But what Jonny Mitchell is saying that song is that you can see life from 2 perspectives.

Speaker 1

02:00:58

You can see the good or the bad in both, you know, in everything you see. And I think that's the allegory of snow right now. You can see snow as this bright, white, wonderful thing, or you can see snow as this miserable, gray thing. So that's sort of, And what I like about the last verse now with the laughter children play is that it's a recall to the first 1 where I was the kid enjoying careless life and eventually was making promises that something would be forever.

Speaker 1

02:01:28

And I think part of that is also the loss of my friendships in France, of being in New York now and sort of everything's gray. And even though the snow seems bright, without you have lost their light, sun that sang and moon that smiled. So it's This concept that if you lose your love, the same thing can be perceived in a very different way.

Speaker 2

02:01:52

Let me ask you this, because somebody wrote me this long email, and I think you're the perfect person to ask this. Uh-oh.

Speaker 3

02:02:03

You mentioned love.

Speaker 2

02:02:06

From a genetic perspective, what is it? What do you make of love? Why do we humans fall in love?

Speaker 2

02:02:17

In your own life, why did you fall in love? You know, the email that was written to me was, you always talk about mortality and fear of mortality, but you don't ask about love. I don't know if there's some thoughts you could give about the role of love in your own life or the role of love in human life in general.

Speaker 1

02:02:47

I think love in many ways defines my life. It's basically, I like to say that I'm a human first and a professor second. And I think this passion for life, this passion for everything around us.

Speaker 1

02:03:04

I mean, the only way to describe that is love. It's basically embracing your emotional self, embracing the non-brainiac in you, you know, the non-brainiac in you, embracing the sort of intangible, the not very well defined. And even in my own research, I'm just very passionate about everything I do. You know, there's a certain passion that comes through.

Speaker 1

02:03:37

And what, I'm sorry, again, being Greek, the etymology of the word passion. What was passion? Passion is suffering. The etymology, when we talk about the passion of the Christ, it's the suffering.

Speaker 1

02:03:50

And in the Greek version of that word, pathos, like pathology, pathos is deep suffering. It's the concept of someone who's sympathetic. Sympathetic means suffering together, experiencing emotions together. So it's funny that you ask me about love and I respond with passion, passion for life, passion for research, passion for my family, for my children, for, you know.

Speaker 1

02:04:16

So there's a certain passion that defines me and everything else follows rather than the other way around. I'm not first thinking with my brain, what is the most impactful faith we could write and then going after that, I'm thinking with my heart, what am I passionate about? What drives me, what just like, you know, makes me tick.

Speaker 2

02:04:39

And that's a beautiful way to live, but I love it how the Greek part of you just kind of connects it to the suffering. So if you could remove the suffering.

Speaker 1

02:04:47

No, no, no, no, no, no. When I say suffering, I don't mean suffering as in being miserable. I mean suffering as in being emotionally invested in something.

Speaker 1

02:04:58

Remember, I mean, again, If you look at this poem, what is it saying? It's saying birds who love are birds who cry. Right? That's the very definition of love.

Speaker 1

02:05:11

Exposing your fragility. If you're not afraid of suffering, you don't fall in love. As soon as you hold back, you protect, you shield your heart, no love can enter. So there's this Simon and Garfunkel song.

Speaker 1

02:05:28

I am a rock, I am an island, and a rock feels no pain, and an island never cries. So again there's some aspect of that into this poem. The fact that You know, but you told me, you know, there I told you darling sweet that forever love would keep is this intermediate thing. And then there's a recall, but you told me you were right.

Speaker 1

02:05:52

Birds who love are birds who cry. So it basically says that love is the fragility that you're willing to give to another person. It's opening up your vulnerable spots. It's sort of accepting that there's no safety net.

Speaker 1

02:06:11

You're just giving yourself fully and you're ready to be hurt.

Speaker 2

02:06:15

So you've already been way too kind with your time, but I'm gonna force you to stay here just a few minutes longer, as we're talking about goodbyes. You have a really nice other poem here about goodbyes. Can I force you to read it as well?

Speaker 1

02:06:31

Oh, twist my arm, twist my arm. So, the next poem was written specifically for our high school yearbook. So, another poem written on demand.

Speaker 1

02:06:42

The rest of them are just so miserable, written by pure, you know, sadness and melancholy. But this 1 was also written on demand. And it was basically saying goodbye, as is appropriate right now, to my friends, and sort of again, reflecting this whole journey and transformation through life. And also, I think showing a little bit of introspection about how we kind of had it easy in high school,

Speaker 2

02:07:07

and

Speaker 1

02:07:08

we're about to go into rougher waters. So the title is actually The Tidewaters, and it's an analogy on that. So here it goes.

Speaker 1

02:07:17

All this was another lake, where some rest we sailors take. Water's calm and full of fish. We'll find there what we wish. Some seek fruit and others feast.

Speaker 1

02:07:30

Some of us just look for peace, some find friendships, other love, some seek both and neither have. We were different when we came, each his own story and fame. Different people had we been, different cultures had we seen, Different nature, different face, each unlike all in this place. We had faced success, defeat, till in 1 lake came to meet.

Speaker 1

02:07:56

There, the orders that we followed and the pride that we swallowed, made us 1 but not the same, joined us strangers who there came. Sooner, later, groups were made, tribes where differences will fade, some attached, more or less, others fought and made a mess. But again we have to go. What for?

Speaker 1

02:08:19

Where to? We don't know. Still we know it. We will try.

Speaker 1

02:08:23

There to rush, to flee, to fly. There'll be some who wish to stay, but they'll carry on away. We will continue on our journey as we came here strong yet lonely. From the lake a river flows, from the river many goals, on that river we will race, each will try to find his pace.

Speaker 1

02:08:43

In that scene, the sailors face, their first fear, defeat, disgrace. Here and there comes out a face that the waters soon embrace. Some get lucky, find their way, others sink beneath the waves. In this race we will part, some will settle near the start, some set goals beyond the stars, cause the river carries far.

Speaker 1

02:09:10

You should know in what we've done, the hard part is still to come. So I'll have to say goodbye. Don't you worry, I won't cry. Neither will they, those who try, till the end, to keep their pride.

Speaker 1

02:09:26

But please know, dearest friends, who are always there to mend, I will always need your hand. I will miss you till the end.

Speaker 2

02:09:35

I don't think there's a better way to end it. Manolis, like I said last time, you're 1 of the most special people at MIT, 1 of the most special people in Boston, and whatever mental force field that you're applying in saying that Boston is the best city in the world, MIT the best university in the world, you're actually making it happen. So thank you so much for talking to me, it's a huge honor.

Speaker 1

02:10:00

Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure.

Speaker 3

02:10:02

Thanks for listening to this conversation with Manolis Kellis, and thank you to our sponsors, Public Goods, Magic Spoon, and ExpressVPN. Please check out these sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review the 5 Stars on Apple podcast, follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.

Speaker 3

02:10:26

And now, let me leave you with some words from another well-known Greek, Alexander III of Macedonia, commonly known as Alexander the Great. There is nothing impossible to him who will try. Thank you for listening and hope to see

Speaker 2

02:10:45

you