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Speaker 1

01:00:00

I rang Nikki, my wife, and I said, whatever you hear now, whatever, I'm just gonna stop. So that was it, stopped.

Speaker 2

01:00:10

You just saw the moment and said, stop. Stop. So that fuzzy place, what advice could you give to people about how to overcome that dark place, the depression, whether it has to do with drinking or not?

Speaker 1

01:00:26

I think if it's to do with drinking, all I can say is that 2 days or a week into not drinking, you'll feel different. It'll make a physical difference, and you'll like that physical difference. And Then from a mental perspective as well, because I think that you have a massive downer.

Speaker 1

01:00:56

I think that that must be because of drugs as well, because I had a situation with my brother. He was professional wrestling and the drugs was an element there. So I'd never touched a drug or even seen 1 in my life. But I'd let the alcohol side go too far and then decided never to do that.

Speaker 1

01:01:20

Then I guess I had people ringing me up saying, how can we stop? When they say, can I have a word, can I discuss something with you? I know then what they want to discuss with me. The thing is that I would say, if you stop, then feel the effects of it, and it will make a difference to your everyday life, and that will make a massive difference.

Speaker 1

01:01:49

I think about anybody who is down all the time, is to find the cause of what's pushing you down, you know what I mean, and try and attack that. Somebody once said to me, they said, we've got something special. We have a great life and I've had a great competition record. It could have been better, but it was great.

Speaker 1

01:02:21

But I've had success with my business, and we're still out there and we have great life. We travel all the world. There's people out there that would live in your house at the drop of a hat, wherever you are. They drive your car, no matter what car it is.

Speaker 1

01:02:39

Some people haven't got a car. And whatever food you're having and you're moaning about food, there's Somebody out there that would take that and gladly eat that. All right. So there's always somebody worse off than you.

Speaker 1

01:02:52

And I think that we tend to sometimes, you know, look at the things that we haven't got rather than the things we have got.

Speaker 2

01:02:59

Yeah. It's a skill probably to be grateful for the things you have, exactly as you said. And sometimes the little things like food and cars and all that kind of stuff. Just to have gratitude for, and family, all this kind of stuff.

Speaker 2

01:03:15

But it's still, having talked to a bunch of Olympic athletes, there is a, when you give so much of your life to winning and then you lose, sometimes even when you win, but when you lose at the very top, it's a tough, tough, like tough thing to go through.

Speaker 1

01:03:37

The most difficult thing, I think for anybody, is when they have to decide when to stop. Yeah, yeah. You know, and all of a sudden, and I see the ones that are going to second Olympic Games and then third Olympic, and the ones that are there and they're holding on and they're in their 30s now, different to when they were 19 years of age, 30 something is different to 19.

Speaker 1

01:04:03

And then what are you going to do afterwards? And then how do you become just a normal person? You're never going to be a normal person as such, but I think you've got to do normal things. And then you've got to remember the first time that when I finished competition, I had good sponsors.

Speaker 1

01:04:20

This was 40 years ago, but I had 2 really good sponsorships, Vitamin Company and also Judo-G company. And I had a car and I had money. And I was going all over the world. I was successful.

Speaker 1

01:04:38

And then I stopped. And they took everything back. They took my car. And they did it within 2 weeks as well.

Speaker 1

01:04:46

They stopped my funding, you know, and the vitamin company said, thank you very much. It's been a great, you know, we've done well by you. Bye bye.

Speaker 2

01:04:55

This was after your last Olympics.

Speaker 1

01:04:57

88 Olympics. Yeah. You know, when that finished and then that was it, you know, and then it's right, okay.

Speaker 1

01:05:03

First time I had to go in there and buy a track suit and a pair of training shoes. Yeah. Wow.

Speaker 2

01:05:09

Yeah, those are different sitting there in the evening by yourself.

Speaker 1

01:05:13

So you go from 7 days a week or 6 days a week going into the gym and you're working out the dojo, and then you don't have to do it. That's why you get a lot of when they finish competition, they finish that 30 to 40. I mean, Ilyas is still doing it now.

Speaker 1

01:05:32

He's still in there and he's still, because he can, right? Okay, and it's natural. And I did exactly the same. And then, like I say, you just get to an age and you just think, well, I'm just gonna kind of take a step back.

Speaker 2

01:05:46

Which is why there's certain athletes like Ryo Kotani, never stops, it just dominates for 14 years. Probably 1 of the winningest athletes in Judo. Yeah.

Speaker 2

01:06:00

7 time world champ, 2 time Olympic champ, medaled at 5 Olympics. So it's always impressive when you

Speaker 1

01:06:06

have it. Never stopped.

Speaker 2

01:06:07

Never stopped. So that's an option if you're like the greatest ever.

Speaker 1

01:06:12

It'd be interesting, wouldn't it, just to see what they're doing now, you know? Because at some stage you have to get a normal job. You do

Speaker 2

01:06:17

have to stop.

Speaker 1

01:06:18

You do have to stop. At some stage, you have to decide what you're going to do. It's either into coaching, the judo is either to coaching, or if you're not in coaching, then it's into something to do with the media.

Speaker 1

01:06:35

And I was lucky that I, it was just by accident really with the commentary. Somebody said, would you do a voiceover? So I did this voiceover and That was back in 1982, I did that.

Speaker 2

01:06:49

So you've been commentating since 1982.

Speaker 1

01:06:52

I did some voiceovers. I wouldn't call it commentating. But I did some voiceovers and then I did some different European championships, World Championship events, and I did the voiceovers for it.

Speaker 1

01:07:07

The way that it was done, that it was more narration. It turned into then somebody asked me to do an event, and when you listen to the intonation of the voice and stuff like that, it wasn't like it is now, but I guess that's just something that developed. Because then it was coming from the heart and I started to get excited and just do my thing, and it was just me really, It's just my style.

Speaker 2

01:07:34

Well, I've listened to your commentary from a while back. I don't know if it's the 80s, but it's still there.

Speaker 1

01:07:39

I think it's timing as well, isn't it? It's like, you know, you get your timing a bit better and know when to go in, when to come out, when to say something, when not. I think that in the early days, I tended to think, I tended to want to talk all the time, and you don't have to do that.

Speaker 2

01:07:58

Also knowing when to shut up.

Speaker 1

01:08:01

That's the key, isn't it?

Speaker 2

01:08:02

Yeah, part of the drama is in the silence, building up to the setup and the throw and all that kind of stuff. But also you're very good at, while radiating passion, being very precise and specific about the details of the throw and the setup and why something worked and didn't.

Speaker 1

01:08:22

Yeah, I think there's 2 kinds of commentating. You can commentate what you see and then you commentate what people can't see. And so if you've got somebody that is not really understanding of what's happening in the inner part of the game, so it might be a technical thing or it might be the tactical part of the play here that's going on, And if you can introduce that as well, then you've got an advantage.

Speaker 2

01:08:50

Quick pause. I need a breath

Speaker 1

01:08:51

and break. Okay. Good stuff.

Speaker 2

01:08:54

So we just took a little break and went to judotv.com, which is, I guess, an IGF website. IGF is the organization behind a lot of the big Judo events in the world. And I just signed up.

Speaker 2

01:09:07

You should sign up too. It's great.

Speaker 1

01:09:09

Absolutely. Sign up. Cheaper the price. Cheaper the price.

Speaker 2

01:09:12

Yeah. And you can watch basically any match from the Grand Slams and go back through history, I guess.

Speaker 1

01:09:20

Yeah, I've got to say, Lex, I mean, everybody, still people saying to me, oh, you know, we need more judo on television. They've got judo on television every other week that they can access. All of the top people in all the top events.

Speaker 1

01:09:35

And it costs a hundred dollars a year, you know, it's to access everything and they can play all the videos. I mean, we've just accessed this here, the Paris tournament, and we're going to have a look at Teddy Renner, but you know, it's so cheap at the price.

Speaker 2

01:09:51

So we're now in Paris Grand Slam 2024, Teddy Renner final. By the way, super cool, like you click on the draw and you can just look at any of the matches, go to the bottom of the finals, you can go to any 1 of them, that's so cool. That's really well done, really well done interface.

Speaker 2

01:10:11

Anyway, let me at first ask the ridiculous big question, who do you think is the greatest of all time? Steady Renair in the writing?

Speaker 1

01:10:16

He's the greatest judo winner of all time. Of that there's no doubt. I mean he is the – and I think if you asked him whether he was the greatest judo man in the world of all time, he would say, no I'm not.

Speaker 1

01:10:34

You know, and he's not the greatest judo man. There are people with, you know, more beautiful judo in some ways, although he's got great technique. But He is the ultimate winner.

Speaker 2

01:10:47

10 time world champ, 2 time gold medalist in the Olympics, I guess 2 time bronze medalist. He's probably going, is he going to Paris?

Speaker 1

01:10:57

Yeah. He's

Speaker 2

01:10:57

going after it again? So he's right here, I mean.

Speaker 1

01:11:00

He's right there, you know, This was just a couple of months ago. And then last week, he was out again and he won again.

Speaker 2

01:11:07

You think he gets gold medal this time?

Speaker 1

01:11:09

There's people getting closer to him, right? Because he's obviously, he's age wise And the amount of time that he's been there, he's obviously somebody that is starting not quite at his best as he was when he was younger. But he like I say, he still puts it on the line.

Speaker 1

01:11:29

He lays it on the line every single time. And then not only does he lay it on the line, but he beats them all. And last week he just beat Saito, who's a young up and coming Japanese fighter, and he beat him in the final. It was close and he did well.

Speaker 1

01:11:45

There are certain people, the smaller ones actually, not the taller ones because we're saying about the big arm over the top that he likes, and the dominant grip that he likes, there are people that can give him a hard time. Now, if at the Olympic Games he has 2 or 3 of those on the trot, it might work against him. And it's by no means an absolute certainty that he's going to win the Olympic gold medal, but he's got to be 1 of the favorites, top favorite. No matter what happens now, Teddy Renner is the greatest winner.

Speaker 1

01:12:19

If you asked the great Yamashita, he would say the same. Yamashita was unbeaten in international competition. I trained with Yamashita a lot over a two-year period and got to know him quite well. And he was 1 of the greatest of all times.

Speaker 1

01:12:38

You know, for me, he was 1 of the greatest judo men. And I'm talking about from a technical point of view, from a spectacular judo point of view, understanding the fundamental principles of how techniques work. Sometimes having different techniques that work for you. So if 1 doesn't work and 1 particular direction doesn't work, you can change the direction completely.

Speaker 2

01:13:04

In case people don't know, Yamashita is this legendary Jidoka, heavyweight. Teddy Rene, heavyweight, that's plus 100 kg.

Speaker 1

01:13:12

So he- He would have caused him all sorts of problems.

Speaker 2

01:13:15

Oh yeah, that's cool. Who do you think wins, Yamashita?

Speaker 1

01:13:18

Yes, I think Yamashita.

Speaker 2

01:13:21

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Do you think Yamashita would be a steady winner?

Speaker 1

01:13:24

I think so.

Speaker 2

01:13:26

Strong words. You think so. You think so.

Speaker 2

01:13:29

Yamashita is on the shorter side, right?

Speaker 1

01:13:31

Yeah, and he finds it more difficult with shorter people, you know, and so it was, it would have been a very interesting confrontation. And I think if you asked Yamashita, he would probably say, you know, that Teddy Renner, he's very gracious, He's really gracious. It would be really good.

Speaker 1

01:13:53

It would have been an unbelievable matchup. I've got to say this, that Teddy Rene is the greatest winner of all time.

Speaker 2

01:14:03

Competition wise. So it's interesting, both of them, maybe you can correct me, but have this Osotogare, which is kind of a trip that I never understood. Yeah.

Speaker 2

01:14:16

Like It's a very tricky thing to do, right? It's very easy to do maybe as a white belt. You roll in, you can understand, but to do it at the high, high, high level.

Speaker 1

01:14:27

You see any of the top guys now, especially if they're second time out. They might catch somebody by surprise. They come out, they go bang, and you go, that was amazing.

Speaker 1

01:14:39

But if they fought again, 10 minutes later, you go, you're not going to catch me with that. You got a different situation here, and so it's slightly different. But the best fighters adapt like that. And they're able to see a situation, feel the situation, and they attack once and then go again and attack second, third time.

Speaker 1

01:15:04

And in the third time, they make it work.

Speaker 2

01:15:06

Yeah, both Himasha and Teddy Renner with the Sorogari, they'll just like hit it over and over in the match.

Speaker 1

01:15:11

Yeah, sometimes it'll hit first time and it won't go. And then you make a readjustment of the way in. It's a little bit like, I mean, if you take a really easy way of understanding it, is if we're shooting at a target and all of a sudden, you start moving that target, it's different hitting a moving target, but it's also different hitting a moving target that's trying to hit you as well.

Speaker 1

01:15:35

And that's our game, right? So we're not only trying to throw a moving target, we're trying to throw a moving target that's trying to throw us. So that makes it even more difficult.

Speaker 2

01:15:45

Yeah, there's a few folks who you know what's coming. It's like over and over and over, it's the same attack. Anyway, with this Uchimada, it's like, it's different.

Speaker 2

01:15:58

There's not many people like that, where it's like the same attack. I mean, there's other attacks also, but they'll just go after the same thing over and over and over.

Speaker 1

01:16:05

When I watch great athletes, most of them can throw over both flanks. Not always going left and right, you know, although our sport always, I mean, the cat is always demonstrated left and right. So like if you demonstrate, if you do something on 1 side, then can you demonstrate it on the other side?

Speaker 1

01:16:29

Can you do it equally? No, but you do it differently on the other side. When I'm teaching, I don't teach left and right. I teach, so if I was teaching you to do a technique, first thing I'd do is say I need you to take a sleeve and a lapel.

Speaker 1

01:16:46

All right? So I'd let you decide what was left and right, okay? Cuz often what happens is we impart on people whether they're gonna be left or right when we start teaching, you get a lot of teachers do that, all right? And They'll say immediately, what do you write with, left or right hand?

Speaker 1

01:17:04

It's no indicator actually as to how we do Judo because I'm left-handed and I do more predominantly right-handed because I lead off my strongest hand. Actually, most people do. So actually, left and right is a bit of a trap sometimes when we're teaching. Better to get, because we can go.

Speaker 1

01:17:24

So my point was, is that a lot of people can go both flanks. So they'll do something over this side and something over this side.

Speaker 2

01:17:32

But anyway, it was one-sided.

Speaker 1

01:17:34

He was one-sided, but he could switch it. So he had a sea and agi as well on the other side. So he could switch it if he

Speaker 2

01:17:42

had to. Yeah. And by the way, your opponent in 84.

Speaker 2

01:17:48

Was he righty or lefty? He was a righty. So that drop left. Yeah.

Speaker 2

01:17:53

Where did that come from?

Speaker 1

01:17:55

Well, I mean, again, it was, you know, he could have probably in other contests. He'd hit me with it several times and I just stopped it, you know And just at the wrong place at the right time for him Right place in the wrong time for me, right?

Speaker 2

01:18:10

That's life. Yeah.

Speaker 1

01:18:11

Yeah

Speaker 2

01:18:12

All right. Let's watch some Taylor there

Speaker 1

01:18:17

This is final of Paris tournament and This is against the Korean The Korean had had a great day actually.

Speaker 2

01:18:29

Again, shorter.

Speaker 1

01:18:31

Again, shorter. So he does find that difficult. How do you tell you, Renaire, tell you, Renaire, is try and catch the sleeve.

Speaker 1

01:18:37

He's after the sleeve and then the right arm over the top. That's the key point for Teddy Renaire. And of course, what he what he has done, if he can't always catch the big Osada Gary over his right hand side, he's been doing something to the opposite side.

Speaker 2

01:19:01

And the Korean just went for a drop sail. And Teddy Rene block with the hips. And he's...

Speaker 1

01:19:11

Like I say, he has difficulty always against somebody smaller, dropping with the sea and aggies.

Speaker 2

01:19:18

Has Teddy Rene ever been thrown for Ippon?

Speaker 1

01:19:22

I've never seen him thrown for Ippon, but he was thrown last week for a nice technique and he's being caught more and more.

Speaker 2

01:19:29

So it's getting close.

Speaker 1

01:19:30

Yeah, and Tseyev in the final of the World Championships, they had a strange situation there where Tseyev was a technique down and then pulled off a counter And they didn't count it. But then they overruled it. Unfortunately, I was commentating at the time, and I went for a score for Tseyev.

Speaker 1

01:19:57

And anyway, they overruled it, and then they awarded a second gold medal to Tseyev.

Speaker 2

01:20:02

What can you say about Tamerlan Basheev, who also gave him trouble?

Speaker 1

01:20:06

Yeah, Basheev and Tseyev are the 2 that could possibly go to the Olympics. So, that was a close 1 there from Rene, that was closest that he'd actually been there.

Speaker 2

01:20:17

Oh, wow.

Speaker 1

01:20:18

So, didn't have the sleeve and he relies on the sleeve greatly. Big support there in the French, in the crowd.

Speaker 2

01:20:26

And also maybe, can you explain the penalties for, for stalling?

Speaker 1

01:20:31

Yeah. So if, if they don't attack, if they've got a grip, and they've got sleeve lapel or they got 2 hands on, if they're too passive and they don't attack, if they've got dominant sleeve grip, they don't attack. That was quite close as well from the Korean. So the Korean here you can see is having a real go, you know, the penalties will come if they don't attack at the right time, step outside the yellow area, they'll get penalized as well.

Speaker 1

01:20:56

That,

Speaker 2

01:20:58

that's dedication for, absolutely.

Speaker 1

01:21:00

I mean, it was really close. Wasn't it a nice little coach Gary there from the Korean. And if they touch below the belt line with the arms, so if they can, they're not allowed to grab the legs.

Speaker 1

01:21:12

They've stopped grabbing the legs.

Speaker 2

01:21:16

Wow, the Koreans really going...

Speaker 1

01:21:17

The Koreans having a real good go at it.

Speaker 2

01:21:20

I guess every single person in that division is probably training for Teddy Renner, right?

Speaker 1

01:21:24

You think that Teddy Renner has been there a long time, you know. He's got another guy here in the final of the Paris tournament. He's got 18,000 people watching him.

Speaker 1

01:21:33

They're all on Teddy Renner's side. They want him to win and the Koreans out there on his own with his coach.

Speaker 2

01:21:39

But also the pressure that on Teddy Renner.

Speaker 1

01:21:43

Amazing pressure. You know, we interviewed him after this and he said, I've got pressure, people go, well, is he going to do it at the Olympic Games? Can I do it in Paris?

Speaker 1

01:21:54

He wanted to go to Paris. I mean, really, the last Olympic Games should have been it, shouldn't it? This last should have been the final 1. But he's gone, no, I've got to do another 4 years.

Speaker 1

01:22:04

2 penalties are on the board already for the Korean. That Korean is really having a great go. He's got

Speaker 2

01:22:10

a bit of a lift on him. He's going after it.

Speaker 1

01:22:14

He's really going after it. It's an amazing effort there from the Korean. He's getting some last minute information.

Speaker 1

01:22:23

I don't know if you've ever seen his coach stood next to him like that, but it's amazing. He's 6 foot 6 and he's about 4 foot 6. He's a real pitch.

Speaker 2

01:22:34

Full of passion. I love it.

Speaker 1

01:22:35

He's like screaming. So a golden score.

Speaker 2

01:22:38

How does golden score work? Can you say?

Speaker 1

01:22:40

So the golden score. So if it goes without any point on the board from a throw or a hold down or arm lock Strangle, then it goes into golden score. So 2 Shido's on the board a piece, 1 more mistake now, and it's going to be all over.

Speaker 1

01:22:55

And that's it. Teddy Renne just manages to turn it on the Korean. And that went really against the run of play, didn't it? Yeah.

Speaker 1

01:23:06

Because the Korean did better. But Teddy Renner is a winner. Yeah. He says, all right, okay, let's have more cheering.

Speaker 2

01:23:15

Finds a way to score.

Speaker 1

01:23:18

I have to say that even when he loses, he's always graceful. Yeah. He doesn't like it, but he's graceful.

Speaker 2

01:23:25

Yeah. There's so much love there, celebration. It's great to see. It's great that he's doing it again, going after it, chasing the gold medal again.

Speaker 1

01:23:33

Well, he's chasing the gold medal. It's gonna be in Paris, which is gonna be even more fantastic. He's already the greatest.

Speaker 1

01:23:40

You said, what has he got to do to be the greatest? He's already the greatest competitor Judo's ever known. And that was even with the great Tani. So Tani was amazing as well.

Speaker 2

01:23:56

Are you part of the commentating team for Paris?

Speaker 1

01:23:58

I'm part of the commentating team, but It won't be for IJF because it's independent broadcast.

Speaker 2

01:24:02

Have you ever had an athlete sort of come up to you and ask like, why'd you say that? Or like disagree with your commentary?

Speaker 1

01:24:12

Do you know, I've got to say that 99%, 99.9% of everybody is so grateful that I've commentated their fights all the way through. They know if they've messed up. So if I say something, and I'm never disparaging, really disparaging, but what I will say is, it was a great throw by the other guy or it was a great match.

Speaker 1

01:24:35

And if they made a mistake, so if they walk out, they know that I will say something that will, you know, mean something. So nobody really moans about it. I try and talk the truth if I can.

Speaker 2

01:24:49

So who else would you consider as some of the greats? So I personally just because I love the standing Sainagi, Koga. So there's like, you know, the number of times you won the world championships and the Olympic games, but there's also like how you won and how you won into fights and what you did.

Speaker 2

01:25:07

You know, it's not necessarily about getting gold medals. It's about how you fought and how you represent the sport. And there's certain athletes like N-A-Y and Eliade that are going after the big throws.

Speaker 1

01:25:21

Only after they want to win by Ippon. And I think that that is the difference is they're the ones that come out there and it's a bit like when Tyson stepped out there, you knew what you were going to get. If they went toe to toe, if Tyson had somebody going toe to toe, somebody was going to get knocked out.

Speaker 1

01:25:42

We got the same in judo when people go head to head and it's an open match. I often talk about an open match. I say it's an open match, they're both trying to score, somebody is going to get scored on, somebody's going to go. That makes it exciting.

Speaker 1

01:25:58

That's great. When they come out and they close up, then that's not an exciting match.

Speaker 2

01:26:02

Is there a case for Ohno, Shohei Ohno, three-time world champ, two-time gold medalist?

Speaker 1

01:26:09

I think that judo-wise, he's gotta be 1 of the greatest because he had such versatility. He could go right and he could go left. He could pick up, he could go to the ground as well.

Speaker 1

01:26:23

He won a lot of his earlier matches on the ground. I think his empathy and how he presents himself sometimes, he falls down. And I think that hopefully that should come with, tutoring and, you know, of how to, how to be a great champion after, you know, it's not just about what you do on the map, but what you do off the map as well. So is

Speaker 2

01:26:47

this just to you, a great champion is the whole package of how you present yourself when you lose, how you represent yourself just off the map?

Speaker 1

01:26:54

Yeah, I think it's how you present yourself afterwards, how you are with people, how much you can help people. I mean, people, kids, and they look up to these great champions because they want to be like them. So the worst thing is when you get somebody that's a bit of an arse and they're not presenting themselves in the right way.

Speaker 1

01:27:16

So I like to see somebody presenting themselves in the right way. I think that it's something that can be taught. It's something that normally comes with a little bit of experience, a little bit of age. I like to think that I'm a little bit different now than I was when I was 19.

Speaker 1

01:27:32

Not that it was bad, I just think I was just, I see it often now, just full of beans.

Speaker 2

01:27:40

You're a beautiful work in progress. What about Nomura? That I hear in Nomura, that's three-time gold medalist?

Speaker 1

01:27:49

Never lost an Olympic fight. So there's nobody ever done that. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1

01:27:57

That's got to be, it has to stand. He took 2 years off in between every Olympic Games and came back, did the right amount of events to qualify for. Not only did he having to qualify, he had to qualify through Japan. Now Japan, remember, have got the greatest depth.

Speaker 1

01:28:16

So they got people coming through all the time, and then he had to win the Japanese trials. I mean, we had a four-time world champion from Japan. This is when world championships was every other year, and this is Shozo Fuji, and he was the greatest middleweight of all time. And never got to participate in the Olympics because he lost the Japanese trials twice in 2 Olympic possibilities.

Speaker 1

01:28:45

So he had to qualify for Japan and then go to the Olympic Games and then do it there. So, sometimes some of the best people in Japan can't get outside of Japan. Look at the situation they had with Abe and then they had Maruyama. Maruyama was, you know, and Abe were both the best by far in the under 66 kilos category.

Speaker 1

01:29:12

This is for the last Olympic Games. And they sent 1 to the World Championships, 1 to the Olympic Games, and they both won gold medals, you know.

Speaker 2

01:29:20

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's why the All Japan Championships is legendary. There's these battles with Yamashita and all of them.

Speaker 1

01:29:30

Well Abe and Maruyama, they had a trials in the Kodokan. It was 26 minutes, I think it was 26 minutes it went. They were battling it out for 26 minutes.

Speaker 2

01:29:45

That's great. If we can just go to, you've trained in Japan. What are those randoris like?

Speaker 2

01:29:51

What's that training like?

Speaker 1

01:29:54

I touched on the danger, that danger of being thrown when you get hold of somebody or somebody gets hold of you. I often reflect, I often talk about it when I'm commentating, because I can see immediately. It's easy, isn't it?

Speaker 1

01:30:09

We're in the commentary chair or if you're in the coach's chair and you don't really understand totally, Absolutely what's going on when somebody is being outgripped. When they're in danger of being thrown, I mean, if you're in danger of being thrown, the first thing you do is stick your backside out and defend by not being in the position they want you to be in. All right, and so that's danger. You know, you feel the danger.

Speaker 1

01:30:37

And so in Japan, that was the place I used to go to train because I felt the danger and so my defenses would be heightened. And So somebody that was, I went 2 years, 1 Olympic cycle, I went 2 years, 2 months, without having a score on me in any competition. Then I went to 1 competition in the European Championships, which I won. And I was struggling all the way through it and got scored on 3 times in my pool of, you're like my first pool of fights.

Speaker 1

01:31:19

And I was devastated. And I actually nearly lost the whole competition because I was more mortified about being scored on 3 times,

Speaker 2

01:31:28

when

Speaker 1

01:31:28

I hadn't been scored on for 2 and a half years. I had this thing in my head about 2 and a half years. Then all of a sudden, I'm not unbeatable.

Speaker 1

01:31:38

Then you go, and I almost lost it, completely lost it. Just so fortunate. Couple of things went my way and just came out and I scraped and scratched my way to the final and won the final well. All right, but that was my best match, but I almost lost it.

Speaker 2

01:31:56

Well, what do you do with the fact that if you go to Japan and you're getting, you're saying danger, like you're probably getting- Getting thrown. Getting thrown

Speaker 1

01:32:03

in Japan.

Speaker 2

01:32:04

Yeah. What does that do to your ego?

Speaker 1

01:32:06

Well, again, that was a winning ego that had to adapt. I remember we went to the Keisyo, which police dojo 1 time, and they created this groundwork competition, because they wanted to see me do the juji, how I went in and how I did the armbar. They wanted to see how I did it from underneath or over the top.

Speaker 1

01:32:34

They created this event.

Speaker 2

01:32:35

Study the creature.

Speaker 1

01:32:36

Yeah, they started it. Then winner stays on competition was happening at the Cased Joe. I did about 7 in and then my coach came in and said, ''No, it's finished.

Speaker 1

01:32:49

That's it now, it's finished.'' Suddenly we realized what was going on. I was going, ''No, no, no, don't stop me like that.'' It was 1 of those moments where the boot was on my foot, you could say, rather than the other way. Because I had been to Japan in situation. I remember as a 16-year-old, I got such a drumming from 1 of the Japanese guys, older students and he had a gold tooth.

Speaker 1

01:33:27

So he was gold tooth to me and he was my nightmare. I remember kept coming out to fight him because he kept throwing me and I was crying and I was upset. Then that was another occasion where I got dragged away and I said no. So I wanted to go back and fight him.

Speaker 1

01:33:47

I went back to the same dojo every year to fight him. He was on my mind. Morning, noon, night, he was on my mind. Gold

Speaker 2

01:33:57

Tooth was on your mind.

Speaker 1

01:33:57

Gold Tooth was on my mind. Garagetto? 2 years later, 2 years to me from 16 to 18 was totally different.

Speaker 1

01:34:08

18 years of age, I was pretty competitive with him. I was standing up with him. 19, he was in the groundwork competition.

Speaker 2

01:34:20

That's when the switch happened.

Speaker 1

01:34:21

Switch happened. Well, because I remember getting the arm lock and didn't put it on immediately. I needed it to last.

Speaker 1

01:34:32

It had to last. Sure. I spread the whole thing lasted as long as I could possibly get it. It was a long memory as I was looking down at him.

Speaker 2

01:34:45

Now he has nightmares about you.

Speaker 1

01:34:47

Now he has nightmares.

Speaker 2

01:34:47

I wonder what nickname he has for you.

Speaker 1

01:34:49

I don't know. I'm hoping that he remembers me as well. He has a photo of you.

Speaker 1

01:34:53

Do you know what, he probably doesn't say, just back of the eyelid, doesn't say a thing about it.

Speaker 2

01:35:00

Well, I mean, can you just speak to that training with those folks, you know, you said crying, and just the frustration of being thrown. Yeah. I mean, how do you, it's such a beautiful part of the process of becoming great.

Speaker 1

01:35:16

Yeah, I think it is just something that doesn't happen at this level. We were talking about levels, and then at this level it never happened. Then I went out in my first European cadet, and all of a sudden I wasn't this top guy, I was in the mix and then I had to work myself to the top of that mix and then to the top of the next 1 because I went to the European Senior Championships and again you're not the top, and you've worked your way to the top of that.

Speaker 1

01:35:50

I think it is a frustration, but I think it's that hatred of losing and also being out of control. I think that the first time, first senior European championships I fought, I fought Nevzorov, but he was only 1 of my contests. Then I had to fight a Frenchman for third place, but he totally outgripped me. I remember I was more upset.

Speaker 1

01:36:18

If though I won the contest, I was more upset that he totally out, he did out grip me and I was more upset and then I fought him a year later and out gripped him. So it was 1 of those, it was a learning process all the way through.

Speaker 2

01:36:35

Yeah, that frustration is like, whatever that does to your soul, the building up afterwards is what actually makes you better. It's fascinating. And do you think there's, in Japan, just killers there that are like, just the world doesn't know about?

Speaker 2

01:36:54

They just, just.

Speaker 1

01:36:55

Yeah, there's world champions in the dojo. You know, there's people that never make it out. Yeah.

Speaker 1

01:37:00

You know, I remember we were training, like so, and everybody that's, that goes to Japan, all my friends that have been World Olympic champions, they all know what I'm talking about. They know exactly what I'm saying, is that when we go to the dojos there, we all get thrown by people that never come out to be world champions. They're just in the mix or they're going through 3 years of university, and then they go, We had a guy that came in. He was a business guy.

Speaker 1

01:37:34

He came in

Speaker 2

01:37:34

with

Speaker 1

01:37:35

his suitcase and his briefcase like that. He's got a tie up like that. He decides he's going to come in and he gets changed and he's in his lunch hour.

Speaker 1

01:37:47

He's in his lunch hour, so got to be quick.

Speaker 2

01:37:49

Yeah. So

Speaker 1

01:37:51

he comes in and he goes through, he's working his way through the whole of the British team. We're all lined up, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1

01:37:57

He's just working his way through the whole of the British team, and I knew it's my turn next. So I get a hold of him and I throw him immediately. Then it was what we were talking about when it happens in the first few seconds of the practice. So then I had 4 minutes of him coming at me and I'm going up into the air and I'm twisting off and I'm like that, that, that.

Speaker 1

01:38:21

And then like everybody's laughing at the side of the mat or the whole British team, he's gone through the whole British team and then he, 10 minutes later he's just tying his tie up like that, you know, and back to work. Imagine him sitting behind his desk in his computer.

Speaker 2

01:38:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

01:38:39

I'm glad he didn't get out.

Speaker 2

01:38:45

Hopefully he listens to this.

Speaker 1

01:38:46

Hopefully.

Speaker 2

01:38:47

Anybody else I didn't mention as part of the greats that just kind of jumped in

Speaker 1

01:38:52

your life? Kashiwazaki sensei is my favorite of all favorites. He is what I would call a judo genius.

Speaker 1

01:39:03

I don't know if you can get him up here. Can we get him up?

Speaker 2

01:39:05

Yeah.

Speaker 1

01:39:06

So going to 1981 World Championships, and I'll talk you through the great Kashiwazaki. He was 1 year in Great Britain and he was a guy that was so much a genius. All right, so you want the final of the under 60, 65 kilograms there, the 1 at the top.