- The speaker expresses gratitude to the person they are talking to for the impact they have had on their life.
- They credit the success of their podcast to the commitment of being true to oneself and valuing truth in relationships.
- The speaker shares how their relationships improved when they stopped wearing a mask and started speaking their truth.
- They discuss the concept of personas and the importance of being authentic, while also acknowledging the need for functional shells in certain social situations.
- The speaker emphasizes the importance of being truthful and facing one's inadequacies in order to have a meaningful and adventurous life.
- They address the fear and uncertainty that young people face when deciding to pursue their dreams, and suggest making a plan to overcome these obstacles.
- The speaker provides an example of how to strategize and take steps towards finding more meaningful work.

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I feel like I owe you a debt of gratitude.

And I want to say thank you for the impact you've had on my life.

And I'll point at the specific impact you've had on my life.

And you asked me before we started recording why this podcast had been successful.

1 of the reasons is actually something I've gained from reading and listening to your work and that's this real commitment to trying to be your true self and trying to be your truth.

This podcast wouldn't be successful and I wouldn't have been successful in terms of pursuing myself had I not understood the importance of truth across all facets of life and in my relationships, which is a real pivotal thing for me.

So what's changed in your relationships as a consequence of that?

So I believe it's really difficult to truly connect with someone if you're not speaking and being your truth.

And I wasn't, I think I was wearing a mask in my relationships in the context if I didn't express how I was thinking and feeling, I was trying to be who I thought my partner wanted me to be.

And at the point when I let down the mask and I started speaking my truth, actually as I was departing from the relationship, the relationship got stronger than ever before.

And it was like we were never actually connected until I was being true with her, with my feelings, with what I wanted, with my life.

And since then, I would categorize my relationship as being the strongest thing I've ever seen in terms of a romantic connection with someone.

And so when you were starting to talk in your relationship in a more truthful manner, what did that mean that you had to admit?

I mean, you just said that part of it was a disconnect between who you were trying to be and who you really were.

So you think maybe, and everyone has this proclivity to some degree, is they're deeply self-conscious and uncertain.

And so instead of allowing the person they're with to connect with that underlying uncertainty and inadequacy, they act out a persona.

And then the problem is that, well, perhaps the person falls in love with that persona, but there's no real connection there.

And, you know, having said that, 1 of the things that Carl Jung, the great psychotherapist, said about a persona is, don't be thinking that you're better off if you never formed 1.

So for Jung, it was a voyage from, say, undifferentiated self in infancy and so forth, through persona to authenticity.

Because you have to act out your ideals to some degree, right?

And you also have to formulate an avatar of yourself in some sense that's a mediator between you and other people in casual social encounters.

Like, you don't want to walk into the bank and have the teller tell you about his or her day when you say, how are you doing?

I mean, now and then that can happen, but generally it's too much intimacy too quickly.

And so you need this, this functional shell.

But the problem arises when that functional shell is all that there is.

And then the real person underneath is just desperate and, and unhappy because nothing of what's being acted out reflects a true underlying reality.

What is the consequence, the long-term consequence of acting?

So many people, especially because of the world I live in, on Instagram and social media, we kind of build out these personas, and then we almost follow the implicit instructions that come with those personas.

Well, that's the problem right there, is that, well, that I'm trying to get a hold of the Disney people at the moment because I want to do a lecture series on Pinocchio, because I think Pinocchio is a brilliant work of art.

And if you're a puppet and an actor, and Pinocchio is both at times in that movie, both a puppet and an actor, so why an actor?

Like Why is there something wrong with being an actor?

Well, the first question is, well, who sets your role?

And then the second question is, who's pulling your strings?

So you've put on this front that is there to make you popular and sexy and desirable and to mask from yourself your own inadequacies.

And so Jung said, for example, we all acted out a myth, whether we knew it or not.

And you know, maybe you're acting out a tragedy.

You don't know because you've put that on yourself in an attempt in some ways to deliver to people what they want or more accurately to look as though you're delivering to people what they want.

Because at least you're attempting in some sense to adapt to the social world.

Someone who's really infantile and dependent, someone who's never left home, part of their problem is that they haven't crafted a persona.

So, you don't want to denigrate it entirely, but it's no substitute for the real thing.

And it turns out that not only is what we want from each other the real thing, but that's also the adventure of your life.

And so if you aren't truthful, and that means unfortunately, especially at the beginning when you start to be truthful, it means deeply coming to terms with your inadequacies, inhumility.

Without that, you don't have the adventure of your life.

You have the role that has been, that you've acquiesced to.

And that'll take all the meaning out of your life.

You say, imagine who you could be and then aim single-mindedly at that.

I encounter these young people who appear to know who they could be, or they've imagined who they could be, but for whatever reason, they seem to choose the certain misery of their current situation, the job that's sucking their soul out, or that relationship, over the uncertainty they'll encounter as they go on the adventure of their life.

So what would I say to these young people who always say to me, Steve, I want to do this, but you can see them stifled by fear because it's like, yeah,

So when I was doing my clinical work, which I did a lot of career work with my clients, both at a beginner level, I would say, like really a beginner level with people who had no employment whatsoever, no history of employment, who are undereducated and who lacked every skill you could possibly imagine.

These are people who were really in dire straits, up to people who were operating at the top of their profession, but who could still strategize forward.

And so, for example, let's say you're at a dead end in your job.

Okay, so I don't find my work meaningful.

All right, so that's a problem statement.

I find the work I do repetitive and boring and without spirit.

I have a bad relationship or a neutral relationship with my boss who doesn't know who I am.

All of that needs to be differentiated, right, and analyzed in detail.

So we might say, for example, let's say you believe that you're undervalued at work, And maybe you are.

What you need to do is you have something to say.

And we would have to figure out what it is that you have to say.

But it would be some variant of I'm bringing more value to the table than I'm being compensated for.

And it's also not good for you, you being my boss, because if I'm actually more valuable than is being recognized, then the fact that you're not valuing me properly means that I will become demoralized, I won't work properly, and you won't get the best out of me.

And if your boss is in principle not amenable to such a discussion, then what you should seriously consider doing is finding another job.

Okay, so let's say we're going to set you up for this.

Okay, this isn't like next week's enterprise, man.

So the first thing I would ask is, well, do you have your resume or CV in order?

Well, what do you think about bringing it up?

Well, I'm pretty nervous about that because there's some holes in it and you know I didn't do so well in college and I'm kind of embarrassed about my resume.

Let's look at where the inadequacies are as far as you're concerned, right?

Let's walk through those judgments and see if they're warranted Because maybe you're just too guilty and ashamed and self-conscious and anxious and you're not you're looking at your resume more critically than someone else would, and maybe there's some holes that you need to rectify.

You know, you're at, you were 2 courses away from your BA and you dropped out or something like that.

Well, maybe we need 6 months to address that and at least even if you can't be fully educated you could be taking some courses online and so when you went to a new job interview and they said what about this hole you'd say well, I I came to terms with that 6 months ago and in an effort to rectify it I'm taking the following courses and here's my plan for completion.

That's a really good answer and anyone with any sense who's interviewing will accept that as an indication that although you're not perfect and who is that you have a good plan and that you've thought it through.

Like that's the kind of answer that in all likelihood will cement your candidacy for the position.


Speaker 0: I feel like I owe you a debt of gratitude. And I want to say thank you for the impact you've had on my life. And I'll point at the specific impact you've had on my life. And you asked me before we started recording why this podcast had been successful. 1 of the reasons is actually something I've gained from reading and listening to your work and that's this real commitment to trying to be your true self and trying to be your truth.

This podcast wouldn't be successful and I wouldn't have been successful in terms of pursuing myself had I not understood the importance of truth across all facets of life and in my relationships, which is a real pivotal thing for me. And that's thanks

Speaker 1: to you. So what's changed in your relationships as a consequence of that?

Speaker 0: So I believe it's really difficult to truly connect with someone if you're not speaking and being your truth. And I wasn't, I think I was wearing a mask in my relationships in the context if I didn't express how I was thinking and feeling, I was trying to be who I thought my partner wanted me to be. And at the point when I let down the mask and I started speaking my truth, actually as I was departing from the relationship, the relationship got stronger than ever before. And it was like we were never actually connected until I was being true with her, with my feelings, with what I wanted, with my life. And since then, I would categorize my relationship as being the strongest thing I've ever seen in terms of a romantic connection with someone.

Speaker 1: And so when you were starting to talk in your relationship in a more truthful manner, what did that mean that you had to admit? I mean, you just said that part of it was a disconnect between who you were trying to be and who you really were. So that's a persona issue, right? So you think maybe, and everyone has this proclivity to some degree, is they're deeply self-conscious and uncertain. And so instead of allowing the person they're with to connect with that underlying uncertainty and inadequacy, they act out a persona.

And then the problem is that, well, perhaps the person falls in love with that persona, but there's no real connection there. It's an artifice. And, you know, having said that, 1 of the things that Carl Jung, the great psychotherapist, said about a persona is, don't be thinking that you're better off if you never formed 1. So for Jung, it was a voyage from, say, undifferentiated self in infancy and so forth, through persona to authenticity. Because you have to act out your ideals to some degree, right?

And you also have to formulate an avatar of yourself in some sense that's a mediator between you and other people in casual social encounters. Like, you don't want to walk into the bank and have the teller tell you about his or her day when you say, how are you doing? Right? I mean, now and then that can happen, but generally it's too much intimacy too quickly. And so you need this, this functional shell.

But the problem arises when that functional shell is all that there is. And then the real person underneath is just desperate and, and unhappy because nothing of what's being acted out reflects a true underlying reality.

Speaker 0: What is the consequence, the long-term consequence of acting? So many people, especially because of the world I live in, on Instagram and social media, we kind of build out these personas, and then we almost follow the implicit instructions that come with those personas.

Speaker 1: Well, that's the problem right there, is that, well, that I'm trying to get a hold of the Disney people at the moment because I want to do a lecture series on Pinocchio, because I think Pinocchio is a brilliant work of art. And if you're a puppet and an actor, and Pinocchio is both at times in that movie, both a puppet and an actor, so why an actor? Like Why is there something wrong with being an actor? Well, the first question is, well, who sets your role? And then the second question is, who's pulling your strings?

So you've put on this front that is there to make you popular and sexy and desirable and to mask from yourself your own inadequacies. But that's a role. Well, who wrote it? And for what purpose? And so Jung said, for example, we all acted out a myth, whether we knew it or not.

And you know, maybe you're acting out a tragedy. Maybe you're acting out narcissists. You don't know because you've put that on yourself in an attempt in some ways to deliver to people what they want or more accurately to look as though you're delivering to people what they want. And it's not nothing to do that, right? Because at least you're attempting in some sense to adapt to the social world.

Someone who's really infantile and dependent, someone who's never left home, part of their problem is that they haven't crafted a persona. So, you don't want to denigrate it entirely, but it's no substitute for the real thing. And it turns out that not only is what we want from each other the real thing, but that's also the adventure of your life. And so if you aren't truthful, and that means unfortunately, especially at the beginning when you start to be truthful, it means deeply coming to terms with your inadequacies, inhumility. So It's very painful.

Without that, you don't have the adventure of your life. You have the role that has been, that you've acquiesced to. And that'll take all the meaning out of your life.

Speaker 0: The adventure of your life. You say, imagine who you could be and then aim single-mindedly at that. I encounter these young people who appear to know who they could be, or they've imagined who they could be, but for whatever reason, they seem to choose the certain misery of their current situation, the job that's sucking their soul out, or that relationship, over the uncertainty they'll encounter as they go on the adventure of their life. So what would I say to these young people who always say to me, Steve, I want to do this, but you can see them stifled by fear because it's like, yeah,

Speaker 1: well, it's like, make a plan, man. So when I was doing my clinical work, which I did a lot of career work with my clients, both at a beginner level, I would say, like really a beginner level with people who had no employment whatsoever, no history of employment, who are undereducated and who lacked every skill you could possibly imagine. These are people who were really in dire straits, up to people who were operating at the top of their profession, but who could still strategize forward. And so, for example, let's say you're at a dead end in your job. Okay, so I don't find my work meaningful.

All right, so that's a problem statement. It's like, well, why not? I find the work I do repetitive and boring and without spirit. I have a bad relationship or a neutral relationship with my boss who doesn't know who I am. I have problems with co-workers.

All of that needs to be differentiated, right, and analyzed in detail. So we might say, for example, let's say you believe that you're undervalued at work, And maybe you are. What you need to do is you have something to say. And we would have to figure out what it is that you have to say. But it would be some variant of I'm bringing more value to the table than I'm being compensated for.

And that's demoralizing me. And it's also not good for you, you being my boss, because if I'm actually more valuable than is being recognized, then the fact that you're not valuing me properly means that I will become demoralized, I won't work properly, and you won't get the best out of me. So it's bad for both of us. And if your boss is in principle not amenable to such a discussion, then what you should seriously consider doing is finding another job. Okay, so let's say we're going to set you up for this.

Okay, this isn't like next week's enterprise, man. This is your life. So the first thing I would ask is, well, do you have your resume or CV in order? Well, I haven't typed it up for 3 years. Well, what do you think about bringing it up?

Well, I'm pretty nervous about that because there's some holes in it and you know I didn't do so well in college and I'm kind of embarrassed about my resume. It's like Okay, bring it in. Let's go through it. Let's let's Let's at least update it. Let's look where the holes are.

Let's look at where the inadequacies are as far as you're concerned, right? This isn't my judgment. It's your judgment. Let's walk through those judgments and see if they're warranted Because maybe you're just too guilty and ashamed and self-conscious and anxious and you're not you're looking at your resume more critically than someone else would, and maybe there's some holes that you need to rectify. You know, you're at, you were 2 courses away from your BA and you dropped out or something like that.

Well, maybe we need 6 months to address that and at least even if you can't be fully educated you could be taking some courses online and so when you went to a new job interview and they said what about this hole you'd say well, I I came to terms with that 6 months ago and in an effort to rectify it I'm taking the following courses and here's my plan for completion. That's a really good answer and anyone with any sense who's interviewing will accept that as an indication that although you're not perfect and who is that you have a good plan and that you've thought it through. Like that's the kind of answer that in all likelihood will cement your candidacy for the position.

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