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TRANSCRIPT:
https://lexfridman.com/james-sexton-transcript

EPISODE LINKS:
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OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
2:34 - Why marriages fail
24:05 - Sex and fetishes
33:22 - Breakups
59:09 - Johnny Depp and Amber Heard
1:19:09 - Complicated divorce cases
1:25:55 - Cheating with the nanny
1:28:12 - Relationship advice
1:36:54 - Cost of divorce
1:58:45 - Prenups
2:13:06 - Cheating
2:20:50 - Open marriages and threesomes
2:33:38 - Sex and fighting
2:58:33 - Kevin Costner's divorce
3:08:17 - Lying
3:15:45 - Productivity
3:23:39 - Jiu Jitsu
3:32:11 - Sex, love, and marriage

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We have been encouraged culturally to criticize people we're in long-term relationships with.

Not new relationships, new relationships, you put the person on a pedestal, you're allowed to just, oh, they're wonderful.

But every trope out there in every form of popular media is like the wife rolling her eyes at the husband and the husband being like, oh, this loathsome harpy that castrated me.

As if like people are just passive players in their lives.

And I think that is an incredibly toxic message to send to people, that this is how we should be relating to our partner.

You don't take the piss out of your partner in front of people.

The successful relationships I've seen are where people are just cheering for their partner, where they are thick as thieves, where there is just this feeling of like, man, they like each other.

Like they got each other's back like you wouldn't believe.

Like man, you could take sides against anybody, but take sides against their partner, you're going down.

Like and that, when you see a couple that has that, that's so hard to break.

But I think that comes from having like a steadfast, yeah, no, I don't do that.

Like, and you don't shit talk my partner to me.

You know, like, and that to me is, because I think we're just so criticized by the world.

We criticize ourselves so harshly that having a partner who no matter what is like you've got this, I'm with you, like you fuck, okay, yeah, you screwed up, I see it.

Look, I'm not gonna lie to you about your blind spots, you screwed up, but you know what?

You got a right to screw up, a lot of people screw up.

I know you have it in you if you have that person like that.

The following is a conversation with James Sexton divorce attorney and author of how to stay in love a divorce lawyers guide to staying together as a trial lawyer James for over 2 decades has negotiated and litigated a huge number of high conflict divorces.

This has given him a deep understanding of how relationships fail and how they can succeed.

And bigger than that, the role of love and pain in this whole messy rollercoaster ride we call life.

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.

And now, dear friends, here's James Sexton.

What is the most common reason that marriages fail?

That's a great question, but it's a question that everybody wants there to be a simple answer.

Like, they want me to say cheating or money or, you know, the internet.

But the reality is I think it's a lot of little things.

The reason marriages fail is disconnection.

That's the bigger and I think more important question because like Tom Wolfe said about bankruptcy, it happens very slowly and then all at once.

Disconnection happens very slowly and then all at once.

So most of the time what I think people want is an answer like cheating.

But cheating is the big all at once thing.

How did we get to the place where cheating was even something you were thinking about doing?

Or that you would think about and then cross the line from thought into action?

Do you think it's possible to introspect, like looking backwards for every individual case where the disconnection began and how it evolved?

It's a dance, it's a chemistry, it's what did you do and what did the other person do?

And see that the interesting thing about being a divorce lawyer is I'm weaponizing intimacy in a courtroom.

So I'm telling, it's full context storytelling, what I do for a living.

So what I do is I take my client's story and I have to present it to a judge and make my client the hero in every way and the other side the villain in every way.

Now I have to be careful not to do that in a manner that loses credibility because even a judge would know, even a judge is smart enough to know that no one's all good or all bad.

But only if you were reverse engineering a relationship and saying, how did this break?

You really have to look at both people, the good and the bad, what each of them did that moved the dial in these different directions.

And I think that that's very hard for anyone going through a divorce to do about their own relationship.

You know, we don't know who discovered water, but it wasn't a fish.

Like if you're in it, I don't think you see it clearly.

I think as a divorce lawyer, whose job is to really drill down on the facts and figure out what's going on in this story, I have to look at both sides.

So I have to think a lot about my own arguments, but I also have to think about what's the other lawyer's argument going to be, especially in custody cases.

So I really have been forced to look at both sides for so many years, so deeply in relationships that once you do that, it's very, you realize that the good guy, bad guy thing just doesn't apply.

I wonder if it's the little things or a few big things that cause this connection, Whether it's, I mean, you've talked about granola and blowjobs, but those seem to be stories that you can tell to yourself, like, maybe that story should be explained, Or maybe not.

You don't think granola and blowjobs is self-explanatory?

I think people can construct a good, like if you ask GPT, what do they mean?

I think the story that would come up is a pretty good 1.

But that's a story you tell about when you first knew the disconnection has begun, is when he stopped buying my favorite granola or when she stopped giving blowjobs.

I would say when it's reached like a critical mass.

it started before that, when she said, yeah, I used to give him blowjobs.

And, you know, when we were in our early relationship, and then 1 day, like, I just was like, oh, well, you know, we don't have as much time.

Like, well, I'll wait until later and we'll have sex.

So I think she really was like, hey, we've gotten a certain window.

So I don't think she had any negative intentions there.

I think that she was working in good faith towards the betterment of the relationship, but it was having this second-order effect.

And so I really do think that, yeah, the blowjob's granola.

I mean, there are anyone who's been in a long-term relationship, I guess it's just worth asking the question, what does this person do that makes me feel loved?

Because I think it's very interesting in my own experience in life.

I remember I had a difficult chapter with 1 of my sons, my younger son when he was in his early 20s.

And we were having a heartfelt conversation.

And I said to him, do you know I love you?

You know, not just do you know it intellectually, do you feel it?

And I remember thinking to myself, when do we feel someone's love, right?

And sometimes it's the weirdest, silliest things that they would never know.

They are the person who's showing us that they love us and that we're feeling their love.

Like if you said why does this person love you?

They wouldn't say oh, cause I always make sure that when the paper comes, I bring it from the bottom of the driveway to the door so they don't have to go out and get it.

Or I, you know, oh, I always, like, again, I buy the granola that I know this person likes, you know, or I remembered that they don't like it when I put on this particular record, so I don't put it on.

And those are these, yes, they're small things, but they're not small, they're kind of everything.

Do you think it's good to communicate that stuff?

When you point it out, then the person realizes, oh, okay, he likes this or dislikes this.

So yes, there becomes a deliberateness to it, you know, a conscious.

So I understand not pointing that out when it's a good thing.

I think when it's a negative thing, like I think in the granola situation, if she had said to him, Hey, you used to do this and you've stopped.

Like she said, she didn't say anything about that.

Just like he probably didn't say anything about the blowjobs.

Like I think if there had been a moment of this is starting, let's talk about it while it's starting.

But people wait, from what I can see, people wait until the big thing happens, the financial impropriety, the substance use disorder, the cheating, they wait for that to happen and then they go, where did we go wrong?

And the answer is, quite a while ago, with the granola.

Yeah, yeah, so when you notice something, like you notice that little something, talk about it.

Because that little something is probably a kernel of a deeper truth.

We're all like a rollercoaster of emotions, so you can not bring a granola 1 day just because you're in this place where just nothing is, just cynicism everywhere, just anger and so on.

But maybe that temporary feeling is grounded in some other deeper current that's actually building up.

Yeah, and I think a good partner wants to understand the currents of their partner.

They wanna understand like, hey, are you going through something?

Like, and look, if I'm the 1 you need to take it out on, that's okay, like I'm a big boy, I can take it.

You know, like if you're hormonal, if you're frustrated at work, if you're whatever, we should be able to have a little bit of that interaction in a relationship.

But I do think it's so easy to just say to people, communication is the key, but it really is about fearless kinds of communication.

It's about really honestly saying to somebody, this feels like something to me, am I wrong?

Like this just feels like something to me.

I mean, 1 of the things I'm very, you know, I'm very caught up on or feel very strongly about is that we have been encouraged culturally to criticize people we're in long-term relationships with.

Not new relationships, New relationships, you put the person on a pedestal, you're allowed to just, oh, they're wonderful.

But every trope out there in every form of popular media is like the wife rolling her eyes at the husband and the husband being like, oh, this loathsome Harpy that castrated me.

Like we should not, you don't take the piss out of your partner in front of people.

Like the successful relationships I've seen are where people are just cheering for their partner, where they are thick as thieves, where there is just this feeling of like, man, they like each other.

Like and that when you see a couple that has that, you just, you know, that's so hard to break.

You know, Like, and that to me is, because I think we're just so criticized by the world.

We criticize ourselves so harshly that having a partner who no matter what is like, you've got this, I'm with you.

Like, you fuck, okay, yeah, you screwed up.

Look, I'm not gonna lie to you about your blind spots.

If you have that person, like I feel like that's a superpower to have that effect on another person.

Yeah, 1 of the things I love seeing, when you look at a couple and 1 is talking, like in an interview, answering a question, especially like intellectual questions, like what do you think about the war in Ukraine or something?

And then the partner's talking and the other person is looking at them as if they're hearing the wisest thing ever.

Like, They're still looking at them, not waiting for their turn to speak, not thinking about how's the audience going to take that, but they're looking at them like, goddamn, I'm so lucky to be with this smart motherfucker.

Isn't that, but there's a scene- And they

There's a scene in the movie, True Romance.

Gary Oldman scenes like the greatest scene ever done in film, with Christian Slater and he, but there's a scene in it where she holds up a sign to Christian Slater and it says, you're so cool.

Like I've always, I think I say it somewhere in the book that, you know, you go to weddings and like when the bride walks in, you know, everybody's looking at the bride, it's her show.

You know, everybody turns around is the first glimpse everybody gets of the bride.

I always look at the groom looking at the bride.

Because there's this, to me, that's every, he has this look, because This is the first time he's seeing her in the dress most of the time.

And also, he's seeing her like, holy shit, she's coming down the aisle, we're getting married, but this is it.

And I always look at him because I always think to myself, the look on his face is like, that's this feeling of like, holy yeah, wow, okay.

Like that's, everyone's looking at her and she's mine and she's coming up here and we're getting married.

And I feel like, yeah, like that kind of adoration.

Like I think that's the look we're describing is like adoration, like that the words coming out of their mouth, that they're like, yeah, that's mine.

Seeing the good stuff, like with True Romance, I mean, you could make fun of the guys, totally cringe wearing Elvis, like essentially being a fake Elvis with shades and like, what is he doing?

It's like watching these Kung Fu movies, but from her perspective and from any perspective you could take on him is this is the baddest motherfucker who's ever lived.

Like he's willing to do those things for me, but not like, it's almost like an epic heroic figure.

And we're living in this epic hero story.

Like if there's a point to this, to this whole thing, this whole couple thing, isn't that it?

Like I don't understand this idea of, you know, we had a successful marriage.

We were miserable for 47 of them, but we hung in there.

Like the primary relationship of your life, you've decided you're gonna turn into like a 50 mile trail race.

Like congratulations, you took the concept of monogamy and made it something that 2 people are absolutely not gonna enjoy, but you hung in there.

Congratulations, and I understand There's religious perspectives that say, well, it's a sacred covenant.

But I have a real chicken or the egg problem with that.

Because I think it was like, well, how do we sell this incredibly stupid concept that isn't working to people?

I know, we'll tell them God says you have to.

I really, because when you see a successful marriage or you see 2, even without a marriage, you see a pair bond, you see a couple that really love each other and cheer for each other in that way and like hang on each other's words that way and like are just in each other's corner that way, you see the fake shit instantly.

It's like if you, you know, the first time I've, this is the first time I've come to Austin.

I've thought I'd eaten a lot of barbecue in my life.

I was like, okay, I've never had barbecue before.

Apparently this is a whole different thing.

I think it's like, once you see real love, like real love, and I mean romantic love, like real love like that, real bond, real, you go, oh yeah, this other thing's not gonna do it.

Do you think that's a daily deliberate choice that a couple like that makes?

Because it feels like a very easy to do deliberate step, like choose to see the brilliant in it, the beautiful in it, and almost immediately everything shifts and it becomes this momentum where all you see is the beautiful and all you see is the brilliant.

I think approaching life that way is a conscious choice.

Approaching any relationship that way is a conscious choice.

I mean, looking at someone who hurts you or does something hurtful to you and thinking about what's going on in their life that they're doing that or what's happening with them.

And I think a better 1, a better 1 than seething in animosity and letting that eat you alive.

But I don't know that it's, I don't think it should be so difficult.

Like with our children, with our pets, we don't have this problem.

Like you never have someone look at their dog who they've had for 8 years and go, I gotta get a new dog.

You're like, that's my stupid dog that does stupid things.

And it's not like that has to be a conscious, like they wake up every day and go, I should be grateful for the dog.

You know, and so, and your children, like people's children.

You know, it's why people are like not aware of how annoying their children are, because they're not annoying to them.

Like, to you, the sound of your kids shrieking is like, oh, my kid's having a good time.

And see, when I try to, when I hear that, I try to hear it with those ears.

So when I hear a kid shrieking, I just am like, ah, to that parent, that's the sound of that kid having a great time and good.

Like, it's so nice that that's in the world.

For that parent, I don't think it has to be conscious.

So I think it would be great if it didn't have to be a conscious practice.

But I wonder if like anything in meditation or mindfulness, it's a matter of exercising that way of seeing.

Like you're, I think it's, it initially has to be a conscious practice.

And by the way, it's easier to make it a conscious practice before it started to fade, right?

I mean, That's what's so amazing about marriage is there's almost 8 billion people in the world and you're picking this 1.

So when you marry, in theory, the stock's at its highest.

You're as crazy about each other as you could possibly be.

So that's the time to get into this mindfulness, to get into this practice.

Not once it's like the wheels are starting to come off.

It's like gaining a bunch of weight and then saying, okay, how am I gonna lose the weight now?

Well, I think that even before marriage, like right away, just see everything is beautiful.

When you look at someone through rose-colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags.

There's a certain sense where, if you from the very beginning, of course you could end up in toxic relationships that way.

But life is short, you're gonna die eventually.

Might as well really go all in on relationships.

it's a great film, where he says, we played a game you couldn't win to the utmost.

And I think everything, I think life is a game you can't win.

Like to love anything is insane because you are accepting that you're going to lose it.

And you get a dog and you've just resigned yourself to unbelievable pain because this thing's gonna die in like 10 years, maybe 15 if you're lucky.

And why would you open your heart to that?

Because the joy is just so wonderful of it, of the ride up until it.

I mean, every marriage, every relationship, every love is gonna end.

Don't define it the way that's – I mean, look at – Again, we keep going back to true romance, but just get weird.

Yeah, I love this Elvis pretending to be weirdo.

I love this former sex worker who's like, whatever, just go in.

Don't worry about what everybody else is doing in their relationship.

It's not to me surprising that as the performative aspects of life on social media increases, people's satisfaction with their relationships and the divorce rate is following the same trend because I think everyone's going, well, what's everybody else doing?

The only 2 people that should worry about how much sex you're having are the 2 people.

If the 2 people are happy in the relationship, great.

What does it matter what everybody else is doing?

element to great relationships and great friendships of like, fuck the world.

And that's what I mean when I say that thick as thieves, like when they're like a unit like that, because it's, look, it's just us.

It's just what we want, it's what we like.

And that's why I said, like, you know, even when it comes to sex or things like that, if you can't be candid with your partner about whatever weird shit you're into or what fantasy you had in any particular, well then how can you be candid with?

I mean, because you're gonna either go without or go elsewhere, and neither of those is a particularly healthy option or helpful option.

So why, why open yourself to that decline, which invariably is just the path to the chair in front of me in my office.

Yeah, you have a full section in your book on foot fetishes.

Which is funny because I don't know anything about foot fetishes.

Yeah, I'm not king shaming anybody, but there's nothing sexual about feet to me at all.

I don't, but I mean, listen to people like things.

But yeah, I have had clients that have odd fetishes or sexual proclivities or things they wanna do and they don't share it with their partner at all.

And then they find an outlet for it because they try to go without it and that doesn't work.

So they try to find some other outlet for it.

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James Sexton: Divorce Lawyer on Marriage, Relationships, Sex, Lies & Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #396