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Speaker 1

00:00

We have been encouraged culturally to criticize people we're in long-term relationships with. Not new relationships, new relationships, you put the person on a pedestal, you're allowed to just, oh, they're wonderful. But every trope out there in every form of popular media is like the wife rolling her eyes at the husband and the husband being like, oh, this loathsome harpy that castrated me. As if like people are just passive players in their lives.

Speaker 1

00:25

And I think that is an incredibly toxic message to send to people, that this is how we should be relating to our partner. You don't take the piss out of your partner in front of people. The successful relationships I've seen are where people are just cheering for their partner, where they are thick as thieves, where there is just this feeling of like, man, they like each other. Like they got each other's back like you wouldn't believe.

Speaker 1

00:51

Like man, you could take sides against anybody, but take sides against their partner, you're going down. Like and that, when you see a couple that has that, that's so hard to break. But I think that comes from having like a steadfast, yeah, no, I don't do that. Like I don't shit talk my partner.

Speaker 1

01:17

Like, and you don't shit talk my partner to me. You know, like, and that to me is, because I think we're just so criticized by the world. The world is so full of criticism. We criticize ourselves so harshly that having a partner who no matter what is like you've got this, I'm with you, like you fuck, okay, yeah, you screwed up, I see it.

Speaker 1

01:38

Look, I'm not gonna lie to you about your blind spots, you screwed up, but you know what? People screw up sometimes. You got a right to screw up, a lot of people screw up. Come on, get up, Let's go.

Speaker 1

01:45

I know you have it in you if you have that person like that. I feel like that's a that's a superpower

Speaker 2

01:54

The following is a conversation with James Sexton divorce attorney and author of how to stay in love a divorce lawyers guide to staying together as a trial lawyer James for over 2 decades has negotiated and litigated a huge number of high conflict divorces. This has given him a deep understanding of how relationships fail and how they can succeed. And bigger than that, the role of love and pain in this whole messy rollercoaster ride we call life.

Speaker 2

02:24

This is the Lex Friedman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's James Sexton.

Speaker 1

02:34

What is the most common reason that marriages fail? That's a great question, but it's a question that everybody wants there to be a simple answer. Like, they want me to say cheating or money or, you know, the internet.

Speaker 1

02:48

But the reality is I think it's a lot of little things. It's disconnection. That would be my answer. The reason marriages fail is disconnection.

Speaker 1

02:58

What causes disconnection? That's the bigger and I think more important question because like Tom Wolfe said about bankruptcy, it happens very slowly and then all at once. Disconnection happens very slowly and then all at once. So most of the time what I think people want is an answer like cheating.

Speaker 1

03:20

But cheating is the big all at once thing. How did we get to the place where cheating was even something you were thinking about doing? Or that you would think about and then cross the line from thought into action? And that's I think the big question.

Speaker 1

03:34

So disconnection would be my answer.

Speaker 3

03:35

Do you think it's possible to introspect, like looking backwards for every individual case where the disconnection began and how it evolved?

Speaker 1

03:43

Sure, yeah. This is such a multivariate equation. It's a dance, it's a chemistry, it's what did you do and what did the other person do?

Speaker 1

03:54

And see that the interesting thing about being a divorce lawyer is I'm weaponizing intimacy in a courtroom. So I'm telling, it's full context storytelling, what I do for a living. So what I do is I take my client's story and I have to present it to a judge and make my client the hero in every way and the other side the villain in every way. Now I have to be careful not to do that in a manner that loses credibility because even a judge would know, even a judge is smart enough to know that no one's all good or all bad.

Speaker 1

04:28

But only if you were reverse engineering a relationship and saying, how did this break? You really have to look at both people, the good and the bad, what each of them did that moved the dial in these different directions. And I think that that's very hard for anyone going through a divorce to do about their own relationship. You know, we don't know who discovered water, but it wasn't a fish.

Speaker 1

04:52

Like if you're in it, I don't think you see it clearly. I think as a divorce lawyer, whose job is to really drill down on the facts and figure out what's going on in this story, I have to look at both sides. So I have to think a lot about my own arguments, but I also have to think about what's the other lawyer's argument going to be, especially in custody cases. So I really have been forced to look at both sides for so many years, so deeply in relationships that once you do that, it's very, you realize that the good guy, bad guy thing just doesn't apply.

Speaker 3

05:26

I wonder if it's the little things or a few big things that cause this connection, Whether it's, I mean, you've talked about granola and blowjobs, but those seem to be stories that you can tell to yourself, like, maybe that story should be explained, Or maybe not.

Speaker 1

05:46

You don't think granola and blowjobs is self-explanatory? Almost.

Speaker 3

05:49

I think people can construct a good, like if you ask GPT, what do they mean? I think the story that would come up is a pretty good 1. But that's a story you tell about when you first knew the disconnection has begun, is when he stopped buying my favorite granola or when she stopped giving blowjobs.

Speaker 1

06:09

I would say when it's reached like a critical mass.

Speaker 3

06:12

Yeah, phase shift. Because I think

Speaker 1

06:14

it started before that, when she said, yeah, I used to give him blowjobs. And, you know, when we were in our early relationship, and then 1 day, like, I just was like, oh, well, you know, we don't have as much time. Like, well, I'll wait until later and we'll have sex.

Speaker 1

06:26

And then we both enjoy it.

Speaker 3

06:27

Blowjobs are inefficient.

Speaker 1

06:28

Yeah, exactly correct. So

Speaker 3

06:30

You batch it all together.

Speaker 1

06:31

Yeah, so she said, well, exactly. And they had kids at that point. So I think she really was like, hey, we've gotten a certain window.

Speaker 1

06:37

So let's have something we both enjoy. So I don't think she had any negative intentions there. I think that she was working in good faith towards the betterment of the relationship, but it was having this second-order effect. And so I really do think that, yeah, the blowjob's granola.

Speaker 1

06:58

I mean, there are anyone who's been in a long-term relationship, I guess it's just worth asking the question, what does this person do that makes me feel loved? Because I think it's very interesting in my own experience in life. I remember I had a difficult chapter with 1 of my sons, my younger son when he was in his early 20s. And we were having a heartfelt conversation.

Speaker 1

07:27

And I said to him, do you know I love you? And he said, well, yeah, of course I do. I said, but do you feel my love? Like, do you feel it?

Speaker 1

07:35

You know, not just do you know it intellectually, do you feel it? And I remember thinking to myself, when do we feel someone's love, right? Like, what is it that they do? And sometimes it's the weirdest, silliest things that they would never know.

Speaker 1

07:50

They are the person who's showing us that they love us and that we're feeling their love. They would never show us. Like if you said why does this person love you? They wouldn't say oh, cause I always make sure that when the paper comes, I bring it from the bottom of the driveway to the door so they don't have to go out and get it.

Speaker 1

08:07

Or I always hold the door for them. Or I, you know, oh, I always, like, again, I buy the granola that I know this person likes, you know, or I remembered that they don't like it when I put on this particular record, so I don't put it on. And those are these, yes, they're small things, but they're not small, they're kind of everything.

Speaker 3

08:28

Do you think it's good to communicate that stuff?

Speaker 1

08:31

Well, 100%.

Speaker 3

08:33

It takes away some of the power of

Speaker 1

08:35

it, right? When you point it out, then the person realizes, oh, okay, he likes this or dislikes this. So yes, there becomes a deliberateness to it, you know, a conscious.

Speaker 1

08:46

So I understand not pointing that out when it's a good thing. I think when it's a negative thing, like I think in the granola situation, if she had said to him, Hey, you used to do this and you've stopped. That feels like something to me. Like she said, she didn't say anything about that.

Speaker 1

09:09

Just like he probably didn't say anything about the blowjobs. Like I think if there had been a moment of this is starting, let's talk about it while it's starting. But people wait, from what I can see, people wait until the big thing happens, the financial impropriety, the substance use disorder, the cheating, they wait for that to happen and then they go, where did we go wrong? And the answer is, quite a while ago, with the granola.

Speaker 3

09:39

Yeah, yeah, so when you notice something, like you notice that little something, talk about it. Because that little something is probably a kernel of a deeper truth. Of course, there's also moods.

Speaker 3

09:53

We're all like a rollercoaster of emotions, so you can not bring a granola 1 day just because you're in this place where just nothing is, just cynicism everywhere, just anger and so on. But it's a temporary feeling. But maybe that temporary feeling is grounded in some other deeper current that's actually building up.

Speaker 1

10:13

Yeah, and I think a good partner wants to understand the currents of their partner. They wanna understand like, hey, are you going through something? Like, and look, if I'm the 1 you need to take it out on, that's okay, like I'm a big boy, I can take it.

Speaker 1

10:28

You know, like if you're hormonal, if you're frustrated at work, if you're whatever, we should be able to have a little bit of that interaction in a relationship. But I do think it's so easy to just say to people, communication is the key, but it really is about fearless kinds of communication. It's about really honestly saying to somebody, this feels like something to me, am I wrong? Like this just feels like something to me.

Speaker 1

10:59

And also how that's presented. I mean, 1 of the things I'm very, you know, I'm very caught up on or feel very strongly about is that we have been encouraged culturally to criticize people we're in long-term relationships with. Not new relationships, New relationships, you put the person on a pedestal, you're allowed to just, oh, they're wonderful. But every trope out there in every form of popular media is like the wife rolling her eyes at the husband and the husband being like, oh, this loathsome Harpy that castrated me.

Speaker 1

11:32

As if like people are just passive players in their lives. And I think that is an incredibly toxic message to send to people, that this is how we should be relating to our partner. Like we should not, you don't take the piss out of your partner in front of people. Like the successful relationships I've seen are where people are just cheering for their partner, where they are thick as thieves, where there is just this feeling of like, man, they like each other.

Speaker 1

12:00

Like they got each other's back like you wouldn't believe. Like man, you could take sides against anybody, but take sides against their partner, you're going down. Like and that when you see a couple that has that, you just, you know, that's so hard to break. But I think that comes from having like a steadfast, yeah, no, I don't do that.

Speaker 1

12:25

Like I don't shit talk my partner. Like, and you don't shit talk my partner to me. You know, Like, and that to me is, because I think we're just so criticized by the world. The world is so full of criticism.

Speaker 1

12:38

We criticize ourselves so harshly that having a partner who no matter what is like, you've got this, I'm with you. Like, you fuck, okay, yeah, you screwed up. I see it. Look, I'm not gonna lie to you about your blind spots.

Speaker 1

12:51

You screwed up, but you know what? People screw up sometimes. You got a right to screw up. A lot of people screw up.

Speaker 1

12:54

Come on, get up, let's go. I know you have it in you. If you have that person, like I feel like that's a superpower to have that effect on another person.

Speaker 3

13:04

Yeah, 1 of the things I love seeing, when you look at a couple and 1 is talking, like in an interview, answering a question, especially like intellectual questions, like what do you think about the war in Ukraine or something? And then the partner's talking and the other person is looking at them as if they're hearing the wisest thing ever. Like, They're still looking at them, not waiting for their turn to speak, not thinking about how's the audience going to take that, but they're looking at them like, goddamn, I'm so lucky to be with this smart motherfucker.

Speaker 1

13:42

Isn't that, but there's a scene- And they

Speaker 3

13:44

could be saying the dumbest shit ever.

Speaker 1

13:45

There's a scene in the movie, True Romance.

Speaker 3

13:48

Yes, I love

Speaker 1

13:48

True Romance. I love the movie, great movie. Gary Oldman scenes like the greatest scene ever done in film, with Christian Slater and he, but there's a scene in it where she holds up a sign to Christian Slater and it says, you're so cool.

Speaker 3

14:00

You're So cool.

Speaker 1

14:01

And I like, man, like, that's it. Yeah. That's it.

Speaker 1

14:05

Like I've always, I think I say it somewhere in the book that, you know, you go to weddings and like when the bride walks in, you know, everybody's looking at the bride, it's her show. You know, everybody turns around is the first glimpse everybody gets of the bride. And I never look at the bride. I always look at the groom looking at the bride.

Speaker 1

14:24

Because there's this, to me, that's every, he has this look, because This is the first time he's seeing her in the dress most of the time. And also, he's seeing her like, holy shit, she's coming down the aisle, we're getting married, but this is it. Everyone's looking at her. And I always look at him because I always think to myself, the look on his face is like, that's this feeling of like, holy yeah, wow, okay.

Speaker 1

14:48

Like that's, everyone's looking at her and she's mine and she's coming up here and we're getting married. And I feel like, yeah, like that kind of adoration. Like I think that's the look we're describing is like adoration, like that the words coming out of their mouth, that they're like, yeah, that's mine. That one's mine, you know?

Speaker 1

15:06

That's such a great thing. Like, it's such a great feeling.

Speaker 3

15:09

Seeing the good stuff, like with True Romance, I mean, you could make fun of the guys, totally cringe wearing Elvis, like essentially being a fake Elvis with shades and like, what is he doing? It's like watching these Kung Fu movies, but from her perspective and from any perspective you could take on him is this is the baddest motherfucker who's ever lived. Like he's willing to do those things for me, but not like, it's almost like an epic heroic figure.

Speaker 3

15:39

And we're living in this epic hero story.

Speaker 1

15:43

And what does that do to him though? Yeah. That's what, see that's the point.

Speaker 1

15:48

Like if there's a point to this, to this whole thing, this whole couple thing, isn't that it? Like I don't understand this idea of, you know, we had a successful marriage. We were married for 50 something years. We were miserable for 47 of them, but we hung in there.

Speaker 1

16:07

Like, this is an endurance event? Like the primary relationship of your life, you've decided you're gonna turn into like a 50 mile trail race. Like why, why would you do that? Like congratulations, you took the concept of monogamy and made it something that 2 people are absolutely not gonna enjoy, but you hung in there.

Speaker 1

16:28

Congratulations, and I understand There's religious perspectives that say, well, it's a sacred covenant. But I have a real chicken or the egg problem with that. Because I think it was like, well, how do we sell this incredibly stupid concept that isn't working to people? I know, we'll tell them God says you have to.

Speaker 1

16:43

And we'll sign on for that. I don't buy it. I don't buy it anymore. I really, because when you see a successful marriage or you see 2, even without a marriage, you see a pair bond, you see a couple that really love each other and cheer for each other in that way and like hang on each other's words that way and like are just in each other's corner that way, you see the fake shit instantly.

Speaker 1

17:09

Like you see the difference right away. It's like if you, you know, the first time I've, this is the first time I've come to Austin. I've thought I'd eaten a lot of barbecue in my life. I've never had Texas barbecue.

Speaker 1

17:22

I landed, I went and had barbecue. I was like, okay, I've never had barbecue before. Apparently this is a whole different thing. I think it's the same thing.

Speaker 1

17:29

I think it's like, once you see real love, like real love, and I mean romantic love, like real love like that, real bond, real, you go, oh yeah, this other thing's not gonna do it.

Speaker 3

17:41

Do you think that's a daily deliberate choice that a couple like that makes? Because it feels like a very easy to do deliberate step, like choose to see the brilliant in it, the beautiful in it, and almost immediately everything shifts and it becomes this momentum where all you see is the beautiful and all you see is the brilliant.

Speaker 1

18:03

That is a conscious choice. I think approaching life that way is a conscious choice. Approaching any relationship that way is a conscious choice.

Speaker 1

18:10

I mean, looking at someone who hurts you or does something hurtful to you and thinking about what's going on in their life that they're doing that or what's happening with them. Yeah, that's a very conscious choice. And I think a better 1, a better 1 than seething in animosity and letting that eat you alive. But I don't know that it's, I don't think it should be so difficult.

Speaker 1

18:35

Like with our children, with our pets, we don't have this problem. Like you never have someone look at their dog who they've had for 8 years and go, I gotta get a new dog. Like I've had this 1 for 8 years. I got to get, puppies are so cute.

Speaker 1

18:51

What am I doing with this old dog? It's the total opposite. They're like, oh my god, this is my dog. This is my dog.

Speaker 1

18:58

The smell of the dog is

Speaker 3

19:00

like, this

Speaker 1

19:00

is my dog's smell. The bad habits of the dog. You're like, that's my stupid dog that does stupid things.

Speaker 1

19:05

And it's not like that has to be a conscious, like they wake up every day and go, I should be grateful for the dog. Like, it's just visceral, it's in them. You know, and so, and your children, like people's children. You know, it's why people are like not aware of how annoying their children are, because they're not annoying to them.

Speaker 1

19:21

Like, I get it. Like, to you, the sound of your kids shrieking is like, oh, my kid's having a good time. And you don't get that. And see, when I try to, when I hear that, I try to hear it with those ears.

Speaker 1

19:34

Like, oh, I'm a parent, I get it. My kids are adults now, but I get it. So when I hear a kid shrieking, I just am like, ah, to that parent, that's the sound of that kid having a great time and good. Like, it's so nice that that's in the world.

Speaker 1

19:46

But so for me, it has to be conscious. For that parent, I don't think it has to be conscious. So I think it would be great if it didn't have to be a conscious practice. But I wonder if like anything in meditation or mindfulness, it's a matter of exercising that way of seeing.

Speaker 1

20:05

And then once you've come to that,

Speaker 3

20:10

it does

Speaker 1

20:10

itself, right? Like it really does. Like you're, I think it's, it initially has to be a conscious practice.

Speaker 1

20:19

And by the way, it's easier to make it a conscious practice before it started to fade, right? I mean, That's what's so amazing about marriage is there's almost 8 billion people in the world and you're picking this 1. So when you marry, in theory, the stock's at its highest. You're as crazy about each other as you could possibly be.

Speaker 1

20:46

So that's the time to get into this mindfulness, to get into this practice. Not once it's like the wheels are starting to come off. It's much harder. It's like gaining a bunch of weight and then saying, okay, how am I gonna lose the weight now?

Speaker 3

20:57

Well, I think that even before marriage, like right away, just see everything is beautiful. Let me quote BoJack Horseman on this. When you look at someone through rose-colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags.

Speaker 3

21:09

That's great. There's a certain sense where, if you from the very beginning, of course you could end up in toxic relationships that way. But life is short, you're gonna die eventually. Might as well really go all in on relationships.

Speaker 3

21:25

There's a line in Drugstore Cowboy,

Speaker 1

21:27

it's a great film, where he says, we played a game you couldn't win to the utmost. Yeah. And I think everything, I think life is a game you can't win.

Speaker 1

21:38

And so you play it to the utmost. Like to love anything is insane because you are accepting that you're going to lose it. Like I'm a dog person. And you get a dog and you've just resigned yourself to unbelievable pain because this thing's gonna die in like 10 years, maybe 15 if you're lucky.

Speaker 1

22:03

And why would you open your heart to that? Why would you let... Because the joy is just so wonderful of it, of the ride up until it. Same thing with us.

Speaker 1

22:11

I mean, every marriage, every relationship, every love is gonna end. It's gonna end in death or divorce. So why not just go in? Go in.

Speaker 1

22:21

Go in and just get weird. Don't define it the way that's – I mean, look at – Again, we keep going back to true romance, but just get weird. Yeah, I love this Elvis pretending to be weirdo. I love this former sex worker who's like, whatever, just go in.

Speaker 1

22:38

Love this person, have them love you. Don't worry about what everybody else is doing in their relationship. It's not to me surprising that as the performative aspects of life on social media increases, people's satisfaction with their relationships and the divorce rate is following the same trend because I think everyone's going, well, what's everybody else doing? How much sex is everyone else having?

Speaker 1

23:06

The only 2 people that should worry about how much sex you're having are the 2 people. If the 2 people are happy in the relationship, great. Then what does it matter? What does it matter what everybody else is doing?

Speaker 3

23:14

Yeah, There should be an

Speaker 2

23:15

element to great relationships and great friendships of like, fuck the world. It's

Speaker 3

23:19

us versus

Speaker 1

23:19

the world. It's us, it's us. And that's what I mean when I say that thick as thieves, like when they're like a unit like that, because it's, look, it's just us.

Speaker 1

23:28

It's just what we want, it's what we like. And that's why I said, like, you know, even when it comes to sex or things like that, if you can't be candid with your partner about whatever weird shit you're into or what fantasy you had in any particular, well then how can you be candid with? I mean, because you're gonna either go without or go elsewhere, and neither of those is a particularly healthy option or helpful option. It's the start of that decline.

Speaker 1

23:56

So why, why open yourself to that decline, which invariably is just the path to the chair in front of me in my office.

Speaker 3

24:04

Yeah, you have a full section in your book on foot fetishes.

Speaker 1

24:08

I do, I do. Which is funny because I don't know anything about foot fetishes. Me neither.

Speaker 1

24:13

Yeah, I'm not king shaming anybody, but there's nothing sexual about feet to me at all. Like I just don't get it. I don't, but I mean, listen to people like things. It's good, you know?

Speaker 1

24:23

But yeah, I have had clients that have odd fetishes or sexual proclivities or things they wanna do and they don't share it with their partner at all. And then they find an outlet for it because they try to go without it and that doesn't work. So they try to find some other outlet for it. And then that's interpreted as a betrayal and it creates distance and people split up.

Speaker 1

24:45

And of course, everybody likes to have like a bad guy to blame it on. So when you say, well, why'd you guys get divorced? Oh, cause he secretly had a foot fetish and he was on these message boards like meeting people. Well, it gives you an easy answer as to why the 2 of you split up.

Speaker 1

24:58

But I don't think most divorces have such simple answers as it was a foot thing. But I also think too, like, listen, if you got a partner, I mean, we all do stuff that we're not super into because we're in a relationship. And that's what part of it is. Like, do you really want to go see that chick flick?

Speaker 1

25:15

Do you really want to eat at this restaurant? Do you really wanna go to her cousin's wedding? No, but part of being in a relationship is, okay, if you're into this, I'm gonna pretend this song's a good song, even though it's not my favorite song. And I think, I just don't know, we've turned sex, I mean, sex has been so politicized in recent years.

Speaker 1

25:33

Maybe it always was. But I think we've made it into something where we can't just, I don't know, I'm not into feet, but if the woman I love was like, you know, I'm really into feet, like I really want to do stuff with your feet. I'd be like, all right, I can pretend I'm into that. Like, it's not gonna kill me, you know?

Speaker 1

25:51

I'm not gonna be able to make it a centerpiece of our coupling, but you know, like, yeah, I can pretend I'm into feet if you want.

Speaker 3

25:56

I don't personally have any fetishes that are outside of the normal discourse.

Speaker 1

26:02

As a divorce lawyer, I get to experience the whole spectrum.

Speaker 3

26:06

But if I was into like furries, for example, I don't know how I would initiate the conversation with my partner about that.

Speaker 1

26:15

But frame the question the other direction. If you were into furries, how do you prevent your partner from knowing anything about that? That feels like a real, you'd have to make a conscious choice to not let your partner know that.

Speaker 3

26:32

Sure, sure.

Speaker 1

26:34

So I don't think either of those is a particularly palatable or easy proposition.

Speaker 3

26:40

But a lot of people live life hiding some part of themselves.

Speaker 1

26:44

Yeah, quite unsuccessfully. The second order effects of that are very rarely positive. Sure.

Speaker 1

26:51

I don't think I've ever met someone who went, yeah, I really hid this huge part of myself for an extended period of time.

Speaker 3

26:56

And it worked out great.

Speaker 1

26:57

And that's the best thing that happened. I'm really glad I stayed in the closet as long as I did. You know, it really worked out.

Speaker 1

27:02

Like it rarely does, it's a question of how long can you hold it off? Like I know gay men who stayed in the closet for 40 years, 50 years of their lives. And then they had a successful second chapter as a gay man. I've had clients like that.

Speaker 1

27:21

Do they regret that they were in the closet? No, because they were married, they had kids, like they had experiences they're glad they had. But would their advice to a young person in their 20s and 30s who's gay be stay in the closet, because then you can have a wife and some kids and then you can come out when you're 50 or 60 and have a second chapter. No, they would say, you know, be who you are.

Speaker 1

27:41

Don't be afraid, you

Speaker 3

27:42

know. As you were talking, I'm trying to think of, because I'm publicly and privately, I'm the exact same person, or try to be the exact same person. So I usually try to make sure there's nothing to hide, but I was trying to come up with a counter example for you for if there's good things to hide. Well, I mean, there could be like past relationships, Like if I slept with thousands of women or something like this, maybe you wanna put that to the side when you have

Speaker 1

28:10

a guy. Well, you don't wanna be in, there's a difference between being honest about something and being indelicate about it. Right.

Speaker 1

28:19

You know, like I think we all do this with lovers, like any of us who've been in more than 1 relationship, you would not, you know, at the end of sex be like, that was the third best sex I've ever had. You know, like you, that's, it's just indelicate, it's rude, you know? So I don't think it's a matter of like total candor at all times, but I think if you were, we're using the furry example, I'm not picking on furries. I just think if that is a proclivity that is anything other than a passing thought, like it's something that you just keep coming back to, then you're making a conscious decision to withhold it from your partner.

Speaker 1

29:03

And what is that out of? I mean, I would say it's probably out of fear. I'm not a psychologist, but probably out of fear. Fear that they would reject you.

Speaker 1

29:11

Okay, well, now, see, I genuinely believe that this, you know, I'm very conflicted in my religious faith, but I don't know that I believe in the devil. But if there was a devil, I think his principal function would be to convince us that we are so bestial that God couldn't love us. It would be to convince us that we're awful and that we should just lean into the awfulness. And I know the greatest low points of my life came whenever I just went, you know what, I'm just awful, I might as well just behave awfully.

Speaker 1

29:55

And I really believe that when you don't, when you push down parts of yourself, like your sexuality, like your insecurities, your true feelings from your romantic partner, the person who's supposed to be your number 1, you are making sure you will never feel their love because they don't love you, they love the you you've presented to them, which you know in your heart is not the authentic, honest, real you. And so if you know you're super into furries and you don't tell your partner about that, and your partner says, I love you so much, and you know what I love? 1 of the things I love about us is we have such great sexual chemistry, you'll never feel that love because you know, yeah, that's not true though. She doesn't know.

Speaker 1

30:52

She doesn't know that actually I'm not really satisfied and there is this thing that I want that I know I can't even tell her because I'm so ashamed of it. Like that doesn't feel like a good option to me.

Speaker 3

31:03

Yeah, yeah. So that kind of vulnerability is essential to intimacy.

Speaker 1

31:10

You know, I'm prone to jujitsu metaphors, and this is 1 of the first conversations where I can actually use them because the person I'm talking to is a jiu-jitsu person.

Speaker 3

31:18

And people should know that you are a quote unquote jiu-jitsu person. You have been afflicted with the disease.

Speaker 1

31:24

I am a brown belt under Marcello Garcia and I am like a 7 year brown belt now.

Speaker 3

31:29

Which is the right way to be a Brombo.

Speaker 1

31:32

Well, and also I am, you know, late middle-aged, middleweight and moderately talented. So I'm, and training at that academy with so many incredibly talented people and training in New York City where there's so many unbelievably talented people, you're constantly humble and feeling like you should just be wearing a blue belt all the time. But a lot of, I think, as you know, and as most people who practice jujitsu know, you start to sort of see jujitsu in everything.

Speaker 1

31:58

I genuinely believe that in love, you have to give something to get something. You have to create, everything you do creates a vulnerability. You know, every move you make in jujitsu creates opportunity and creates vulnerability. And so you have to be willing to create vulnerabilities in order to get any leverage, in order to get any progress in any way to move the position.

Speaker 1

32:25

You don't want a marriage that's just 2 people both in 50-50, like you're just sitting in that car doing nothing. You know, you want it to actually move along. Yeah, I

Speaker 3

32:36

mean, that's the way I see love and relationships is you should take that leap of vulnerability, give the other person the option to destroy you.

Speaker 1

32:43

Well, you have to expose. And that's the part that I think is hard for everyone, is to expose yourself in that way. But that's what I mean even when I said about getting a dog or having a child.

Speaker 1

32:57

Like loving anything is tremendously courageous because it's terrifying. And it's only brave if you're scared. If you're not scared, it's not brave, it's just stupidity. It's bravery when you're afraid and you do the thing anyway.

Speaker 1

33:17

And so love is like, yeah, it's scary. I don't care who you are. Being in the jiu-jitsu community, like I'm around, as you are, incredibly tough people, like physically tough people, mentally tough people. But I've seen some of those people taken down by 120 pound woman.

Speaker 1

33:40

Not from a grappling perspective, but they are taken apart by a woman in their life. And vice versa, I've seen men who like, it really is shocking how much leverage we give to our romantic partners and how little discussion we really, genuine discussion we really have about it, how much we really are ever trained to think about it. There's nothing in school that teaches us about it. So much of literature and art is an idealized version of it.

Speaker 1

34:13

So little of it is real.

Speaker 3

34:16

And no matter how it evolves, when it ends in tragedy or drama, I feel like what people don't do enough is appreciate the good times. Like appreciate how beautiful it is to having taken the risk and to having experienced that kind of love. I think when you look at people that are divorcing each other, there's a Edgar Allan Poe quote, that years of love have been forgot in the hatred of a minute.

Speaker 3

34:47

I always kind of am saddened, like deeply saddened, how people seem to forget how many beautiful moments have been shared when some reason, some drama, some breakup leads them to

Speaker 1

35:01

part ways. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting that you came to that not being a divorce lawyer, because I've felt that way for a long time.

Speaker 1

35:09

And I really try to say to my clients, like in the courtroom at the negotiating table, I have a role to play where I have to be sort of like a pit bull or some kind of like a courtroom sociopath. But behind closed doors, like I'm very candid with people. I'm trying to be much more emotionally attuned with them.

Speaker 3

35:26

So you're an empath in the sheets and sociopath in the streets?

Speaker 1

35:30

Exactly correct, that's well said. I even, boy, I get a new tattoo idea, that's good. I like that.

Speaker 1

35:37

But I do believe when I'm behind closed doors with people, I say to them, how you end things is gonna be how you're gonna remember the whole thing. And that's unfortunate, because you know, you watch like a 2 hour movie, and if the last 15 minutes of it sucked, you go, well, that movie sucked. Like, well, the first hour in 45 was great, but you walk out with this bad taste in your mouth. I'm genuinely in awe of how easily people forget that they loved each other.

Speaker 1

36:09

And I'm amazed because by the time I meet them, and by the time they hire me to be a weapon against the person they were in love with, there's nothing but animosity there. And so I have to try to imagine what these 2 people looked like when they were in love with each other and how that even existed. But I have to tell you, I don't function that way. Like every woman I ever had a relationship with, like when I think of them, I don't think of the ending necessarily.

Speaker 1

36:43

I think of, I try to think about the greatest hits. I try to think about the moments that were wonderful where I loved them and they loved me and like there was joy and there was connection. And I don't know why you'd choose not to. You know, there's that old axiom, I don't know who said it, that if you don't learn to find joy in the snow, you'll have less joy in your life in precisely the same amount of snow.

Speaker 1

37:12

And I genuinely believe like, okay, the relationship ends. This is where it ends, we're done now. I am making a choice as to how I will remember you. And we do it in relationships.

Speaker 1

37:24

Like I always tell people, if you ever wanna see a couple light up, if they're ever like the couple at the table, it's, it seems like they got in a fight or something, ask them how they met. And most people, when they talk about how they met, like their face softens, they both, and the other person looking at them telling the story gets that look you were talking about before. And because they remember that thing and how they felt at that moment. And when this person was a choice, not a default, not their automatic plus 1, but the person they asked to the wedding, not the, of course you're bringing her, it's your wife, you bring your fucking wife places.